TTC: Streetcar Network

[steveintoronto]

TTC launches internal review after string of streetcar collisions
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...iew-after-string-of-streetcar-collisions.html

I foresee even more slowdowns on the streetcar network in the near future. Self sabotage at its finest.

As it pertains to the King Street Pilot, I've often noted how incredibly dangerous it is for cyclists to ride the 'tightrope of death' between the street furniture and the passing streetcars. The City is insane to not only allow it, but encourage it. I've actually witnessed at close range a brush with calamity for an idiot cyclist who insisted on pushing past me to run the gauntlet. His bars brushed the street fixtures, then he bounced off of the streetcar, and somehow miraculously regained control. One would hope he got a message...but no...

Streetcars are not to be messed with, and the City should take note.

 

[nfitz]

Perhaps we need measures along the streetcar-right-of-way that stops cyclists from travelling anywhere, except in the centre of the tracks - for their own safety. Perhaps it could stop taxis using the transit stops as taxi stands too.

 

[TransitBart]

Streetcars are not to be messed with, and the City should take note.

The city should take note of what? Isn't the point of your comment that idiot and disrespectful cyclists should take note?

 

[steveintoronto]

The city should take note of what? Isn't the point of your comment that idiot and disrespectful cyclists should take note?

The point is that the City should not encourage cyclists to use dangerous stretches like the King Street Pilot.

As it pertains to the King Street Pilot

The City is insane to not only allow it, but encourage it.

Dunno how much clearer that could be?

Perhaps we need measures along the streetcar-right-of-way that stops cyclists from travelling anywhere,

It's coming to that, it has to in some spots.

While TTC buses are involved in many more collisions than streetcars, about four times as many in the decade from 2008 through 2017, the two types of vehicles were involved in roughly the same number of pedestrian fatalities over that time. According to the agency, there are several factors that could make streetcars more dangerous.

Streetcars are very heavy and take time to brake. They are also, by their nature, fixed to a track and cannot swerve to avoid someone. And they tend to operate in the busiest parts of the downtown, where pedestrian and cyclist volumes are the highest.

Transit-only lanes are a particular danger, according to the TTC. These dedicated rights of way, which are featured on a number of busy streets, including Spadina Avenue and Queens Quay, are often used as a refuge by pedestrians crossing mid-block. To prevent these collisions, the agency would like to erect barriers in places.

“There’s a reluctance to fence it off or anything, but I think it’s time to really think harder about it,” Mr. O’Grady said. “Ironically, getting off in the middle of Queen Street, on an active [road] is safer than crossing St. Clair or Spadina. You know, we have more injuries and fatalities in rights of way than other places.”

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/can...es-group-to-study-fatal-streetcar-collisions/

It's certainly going to have to come for the King Street Pilot if the City insists on sidewalk furniture being so close to the streetcar tracks, and pedestrians also being put at risk.

Streetcars especially are not compatible with cyclists and pedestrians.

 

[Steve X]

It's not like these collisions were preventable if it was a bus or car. Especially the drunk dude jumping in front of a streetcar.

Buses may be able to swerve but they carry lower number of people. They'll need more buses which increase the chance of collision too. Not only that, it'll lower the number of collision per vehicle operated make the stats appear safely when it's not. I don't think streetcars make the road more dangerous but when collisions happen, the can be a lot more serious with higher momentum from the vehicles.

A BRT on dedicated lanes would be similar if people are crossing midblock and not watching for oncoming vehicles after disembarking. If people are uneducated, things won't change which a switch of vehicle type.

 

[steveintoronto]

A BRT on dedicated lanes would be similar if people are crossing midblock and not watching for oncoming vehicles after disembarking.

But that's the crux of the point. For cyclists, in spite of not riding on dedicated lanes, are still very vulnerable to streetcars. And that's exactly why the City shouldn't be encouraging cyclists to use the King Transit Mall.

It's pedestrians who're getting hit on the dedicated lanes, and that's because of the lack of fencing or barriers, again, a point to be made for the King Pilot: The need for controlled pedestrian crossings gated by lights.

Especially the drunk dude jumping in front of a streetcar.

King Street, bars, alcohol, nighttime, and streetcars passing by with inches to spare and no fencing control.

What could possibly go wrong?

 

[Steve X]

King Street, bars, alcohol, nighttime, and streetcars passing by with inches to spare and no fencing control.

What could possibly go wrong?

It happened on Roncy not King Street. It sounded like he did it on purpose. No fencing control would prevented that. If the city wants to put up fencing, they should do it on very major downtown corridor, not just King Street.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/pedestrian-struck-by-streetcar-in-roncesvalles-1.4856669

The man believed to be in his 50s ran in front of a streetcar on Roncesvalles Avenue, in the Galley Avenue and Queen Street West area, and was struck around 1:30 a.m., Toronto police spokesperson Gary Long said.

He was "extremely intoxicated" at the time, added Long.

All 3 collisions didn't occur in King Street pilot area, I don't see why you're picking on that section. Banning cyclist and fencing King wouldn't prevented any of the collisions. I don't see why the TTC/city should be at fault for real stupidity.

 

[steveintoronto]

^You can talk all you like of a certain incident, I'm talking the whole system:
Streetcars account for half of deadly TTC collisions with pedestrians

24 Hours Toronto - TTC streetcar driver charged in accident

The reason I raise King Street is because many if not most transit malls do have fencing in other cities. I've discussed and detailed it in the King Street Pilot string. It's feakin' dangerous especially for cyclists.

 

[amnesiajune]

The reason I raise King Street is because many if not most transit malls do have fencing in other cities.

I can't think of a single city that does this. Calgary, Buffalo, Denver, Minneapolis and Jerusalem all don't have fencing. Adding it on King Street would make it an awful place that nobody would want to spend time around.

 

[steveintoronto]

I can't think of a single city that does this. Calgary, Buffalo, Denver, Minneapolis and Jerusalem all don't have fencing. Adding it on King Street would make it an awful place that nobody would want to spend time around.

Just because you can't "think of it" is far from what happens. The TTC is "thinking of it" though. A fence between the tracks on RoWs to stop pedestrians from running across.

TTC convenes group to study fatal streetcar collisions

OLIVER MOORE
URBAN TRANSPORTATION REPORTER
PUBLISHED OCTOBER 10, 2018
[...]
Transit-only lanes are a particular danger, according to the TTC. These dedicated rights of way, which are featured on a number of busy streets, including Spadina Avenue and Queens Quay, are often used as a refuge by pedestrians crossing mid-block. To prevent these collisions, the agency would like to erect barriers in places.

“There’s a reluctance to fence it off or anything, but I think it’s time to really think harder about it,” Mr. O’Grady said. “Ironically, getting off in the middle of Queen Street, on an active [road] is safer than crossing St. Clair or Spadina. You know, we have more injuries and fatalities in rights of way than other places.”

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/can...es-group-to-study-fatal-streetcar-collisions/

Many cities fence or barrier their LRT RoWs. Some use hedges, typically the Europeans.

Here's three Cdn ones, two of them right in our own backyard:

ION – Walkability, Fences, and It's Never Too Late to Fix Mistakes ...

www.tritag.ca/blog/.../ion-walkability-fences-and-its-never-too-late-to-fix-mistakes/
Aug 15, 2016 - ION light rail, well under construction, is going to tie our region ... While we may have afence after all, it is proving not to be a barrier at all, ...
[PDF]
Chapter 13 SLRT Design Guidelines - City of Edmonton

https://webdocs.edmonton.ca/occtopusdocs/Public/Complete/.../2007TD9871.pdf
Landscape Guidelines for the South Light Rail Transit (LRT) Extension – UMA 2001 .... If practicable,fencing/barriers should be installed adjacent to surface LRT ...
[PDF]
hurontario-main lrt project - Metrolinx

www.metrolinx.com/en/projectsandprograms/.../System_Design_Guidelines.pdf
May 21, 2014 - -huronTario main sTreeT lrT corridor masTer plan ...... Living Fence: a natural screenbarrier planted with live willow plants woven into a wood ...

-Google for "LRT fencing barrier".

Seattle, San Diego, LA, Portland are others. How "awful".

There's always the alternative as practised on the Bourke Street Mall core section (where cars, cycles are banned): 10 kph max speed limit, with streetcars (trams) in warning mode: Flashing lights and clanging bells.

For some reason, that appears to buck the intention of the King Street Transit Mall.

https://s3.ap-southeast-2.amazonaws...reet_Management_and_Operation_pages_22-45.pdf

 

[nfitz]

The reason I raise King Street is because many if not most transit malls do have fencing in other cities. I've discussed and detailed it in the King Street Pilot string. It's feakin' dangerous especially for cyclists.

I can't think of a single city that does this. Calgary, Buffalo, Denver, Minneapolis and Jerusalem all don't have fencing. Adding it on King Street would make it an awful place that nobody would want to spend time around.

Just because you can't "think of it" is far from what happens. The TTC is "thinking of it" though. A fence between the tracks on RoWs to stop pedestrians from running across .... Seattle, San Diego, LA, Portland are others.

Seattle doesn't fence along it's new downtown streetcar lines. And downtown, their LRT is all in a subway tunnel. I'm not aware of fenced transit malls in LA either - I don't believe they are running streetcars on city streets like Toronto and Seattle do. I'm not personally familiar with the other cities -

Typically in Europe, transit malls I've seen haven't had fences. I don't think you can compare suburban LRT lines to the centre of King Street. Obviously no one is going to be fencing along King Street!

Here's part of Seattle's brand-new line on South Jackson Street near the commuter rail station - looks very much like an older Toronto streetcar line.

 

[steveintoronto]

Obviously no one is going to be fencing along King Street!

You've taken a lot of what I posted out of context. In the case of the TTC, and many other operators, the fencing goes down the centre of the RoW in areas that are problematic. It's to stop pedestrians and cyclists from crossing the tracks. Forms of this already exist in Toronto.

There's been many pics and references posted of European RoWs with hedges instead of physical fences posted in the King Pilot Project. Paris is awash in them as is London, Brussels, etc. Pedestrians cross at gates that are usually signalled or at intersections.

San Diego has most of their extensive system fenced. I spent extensive time there on a number of occasions, know it well. Here's another example:

The two-line electrified railway project, having a 31Km length is in the final stage since its commencement back in 2011, down the line of its commencement, the project is a source of hope for the people who are suffering from transportation problems, but the fence that is installed to separate the rail from the road is becoming a source of disappointment for the businesses located on the side of the rail projects causing decline in their sales, reports FASIKA TADESSE, FORTUNE STAFF WRITER.[...]

https://addisfortune.net/columns/restrictive-light-rail-fences-lead-businesses-to-huge-losses/

https://www.curbed.com/2017/1/24/14361030/best-cities-public-transportation-light-rail-bus

MONDAY, 11 MARCH 2013

A new fencing panel being lifted into place by council workmen just south of Little Bispham on February 27th
The winter maintenance programme on Blackpool Tramway has included the ongoing replacement of old sections of fencing on the reserved track sections. During February new sections of fencing were noted being installed alongside the tramroad just south of Little Bispham.

Flexity 008 passing council workers replacing a section of fencing on the tramroad near Little Bispham
http://blackpooltram.blogspot.com/2013/03/fencing-replacement-work.html

I'll post more pics and examples later.

 

[nfitz]

That photo doesn't appear to be of a transit mall. It also looks nothing like King Street downtown.

Oddly, your previous post tried to change your original context - that of transit malls like King Street.

Seattle is most certainly not an example - and that was your own example!

 

[steveintoronto]

^You're talking in circles:

Here's what I wrote:

Many cities fence or barrier their LRT RoWs. Some use hedges, typically the Europeans.

And here's what you've written and argued with others on prior:

https://skyrisecities.com/forum/threads/king-street-pilot-streetcar-transit-priority.19816/page-80

 

[44 North]

TTC launches internal review after string of streetcar collisions
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...iew-after-string-of-streetcar-collisions.html

I foresee even more slowdowns on the streetcar network in the near future. Self sabotage at its finest.

Many drivers already keep things slow when next to cyclists in tight areas, so perhaps you're right that the evolution for the legacy network is true official "slow orders" for certain zones or times of day. Was thinking some kind of thick rubber skirt and cowcatcher bumper. But with juggernauts like these there's only so much that can be done.