Northern Light
Superstar
We didn't get to see a copy of committee's agenda or a full list of changes being considered now, or at future meetings. I don't know if @smallspy is in a position to add any further colour; but I have shared what was said.
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TTC: Streetcar Network
- Thread starter wolfewood
- Start date
We didn't get to see a copy of committee's agenda or a full list of changes being considered now, or at future meetings. I don't know if @smallspy is in a position to add any further colour; but I have shared what was said.
lastcommodore
Active Member
It has always baffled me why streetcar platforms on dedicated ROWs and platforms were not level with the streetcar entrance. Should have been done a long time ago. Unsure what they will be 'looking' at. Staff will report back in 18 months about how they must do a pilot project at three platforms to pour some concrete on top.
For that matter, the same with pay on platform and next vehicle signs.
Northern Light
Superstar
A few notes here; to be fair.............
Had the TTC lined up island height with the legacy fleet of CLRVs and before that PCCs, both of which had stairs inside them, every last island would have to be rebuilt for the current fleet.
Should there have been a plan to raise the height of islands once we were 100% flexity? For sure.
However, it isn't quite as simple as pouring more concrete.
1) There is a need to decide if you're retaining the stop, and then if you're shifting from nearside to far side. It would be rather foolish to alter the existing island if you then move the stop or close it a year later.
2) Any shelters or guard rails or fare vending machines have to be removed before you can add concrete and/or replace the platform.
3) The profile of the platform has to change, because it must remain flush w/the crosswalk for accessibility. That means the initial portion will be a 'ramp' before it becomes level.
4) Finally, because of that ramp, the stopping location of the vehicle may have to change, which may also necessitate lengthening the platform.
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In summation, its a good idea, an overdue idea, not super complex or expensive, but not quite so simple as a quick concrete pour on a weekend.
Voltz
Senior Member
There was a report on that I remember reading, level platforms would require load levelling suspension, which would not let the floor get as low to the pavement at stops without platforms, riders would've had to step up further.
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lastcommodore
Active Member
The streetcars don't have a constant boarding height? I was under the assumption that they were identical to the line 5 and 6 in boarding height. I did not know this!
adys123
Active Member
The streetcar fleet doesn't have auto self-levelling like the LRVs on Line 5 and 6 do. So consistent boarding height is not assumed.
Voltz
Senior Member
The height can vary due to wheel and track wear.
smallspy
Senior Member
And not only if there is a load within the car itself as well, but even how the load is distributed.
Dan
TRONto
Active Member
Does it matter if it's a few inches higher or lower for most use cases? They could also pick the lowest that the streetcar could go with maximum wear and maximum load. Having the streetcar almost level will provide a faster onboarding and off-boarding then the current case. Those with strollers or shopping carts could easily navigate the difference and those getting the ramps can still request it. Are there some other issues?
APTA-2048
Senior Member
Deployment of the ramp would be problematic if the streetcar sits too low.
TRONto
Active Member
If the platform height was lowest height of streetcar (maximum load + maximum wheel/track wear) would that solve this issue?
T3G
Senior Member
How would that be an improvement if half the time the tram sat higher than the platform height anyway? You won't be able to get a wheelchair over that height difference, which is the area in which you would see time savings by having level boarding. The step up is not so high that having level boarding would materially impact the loading times among the able-bodied, so you'd spend money "upgrading" the platforms without benefiting those who actually would benefit from level boarding.
Northern Light
Superstar
The above discussion leads me to ask @smallspy:
1) Is it possible to refit the flexities with a suspension that would make the level boarding at modified islands work?
2) Given the problem that may cause at non-island stops, would there be any sense to segregating the fleet so that those that run on routes that are all island/platform, 509, 510, 512 had a dedicated fleet suited to that, w/the other flexities remaining configured for typical street operations.
3) Is there sufficient room at Spadina and St. Clair/St.Clair West stations to provide level boarding height platforms, given, particularly at St. Clair West, that the platform also serves buses and has to maintain its current level for stairs/escalators.
1) Is it possible to refit the flexities with a suspension that would make the level boarding at modified islands work?
2) Given the problem that may cause at non-island stops, would there be any sense to segregating the fleet so that those that run on routes that are all island/platform, 509, 510, 512 had a dedicated fleet suited to that, w/the other flexities remaining configured for typical street operations.
3) Is there sufficient room at Spadina and St. Clair/St.Clair West stations to provide level boarding height platforms, given, particularly at St. Clair West, that the platform also serves buses and has to maintain its current level for stairs/escalators.
smallspy
Senior Member
The difference between the lowest low and highest high on a streetcar is something like 5 inches.
The ramp is capable of operating down to a 2 inch difference in height (IIRC), but can not be used if the threshold is at the same height as the platform.
I don't see it being an issue other than cost.
I suppose......but why? Why not equip them all so that we can improve more of the system over time?
It's not like there aren't other subway stations where level platform boarding could be beneficial. Or maybe rebuilt platforms on Roncesvalles or King.
Good question. My immediate instinct is that it should all be do-able, but I have to admit that there's one unknown that may affect any work like this.
Up to what degree does AODA require flatness? The TTC specifies a minimum platform gradient of 0.3% lengthwise....but is that same gradient allowed both lengthwise and crosswise on a platform? Does there need to be a tangent stretch on approach to the doorways? I don't know the AODA requirements well enough to answer this.
Obviously the answer to that will affect the overall amount of platform that needs to be raised to the streetcar's floor level. Less would be better, and more possible.
Dan
Northern Light
Superstar
Thanks Dan for the thorough and helpful answer.