TTC: St. Clair Streetcar Right Of Way

[del]

Its not perfect, but definitely worth it. The proof is really in the transformation outside the ROW. Neighbourhoods seem to have new energy all along the line, and the new shops popping up are a lot better than those that couldn't survive the construction. The few condos that have been built so far are good quality, and at a restrained scale that doesn't overwhelm the street.

I think it was the Northcliffe and Wychwood stops that were being considered for removal. To me the one stop that should be removed is Vaughan. I know its a major street with a lot of apartments, but that string of Bathurst, Vaughan, Wychwood really is the only frustrating stretch on the route. Besides, the 90 and 126 buses also stop there so, and its pretty close to Bathurst.

I think -BATHURST, KENWOOD, CHRISTIE - would be appropriate spacing

 

[drum118]

I think -BATHURST, KENWOOD, CHRISTIE - would be appropriate spacing

There should be less platforms as noted, including 1 between Oakwood and Dufferin. It makes no different which one should go to me, but one has to go.

Wychwood was to be removed, but the ward councilor opposed it. No need for Vaughan, since it almost next to Bathurst. Not sure who call for it to stay, but a mistake.

There is supposed to be $30M in the City Capital Budget to rebuild the Georgetown bridge to add another lane of traffic and what a waste of $$$ for the need of it for 4 hours a day.

Not sure what GO going to do with this rebuilding of the bridge after it just rebuilt the corridor.

I didn't get a straight answer when I asked if Metrolinx was kicking in money as well CP, since it was a 55% split for the city and the rest between CN & CP when it was built.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Interesting timing to rebuild the St.Clair West / Georgetown Corridor in the 10 years after installing the St.Clair Streetcar ROW and Air-Rail Link, and not during one of those projects. I guess this is one of those examples where you build something less than ideal to achieve an objective knowing that the problem that was glossed over would be re-prioritized and get its own budget to fix. If the Barrie corridor bridge gets replaced I wouldn't imaging that would happen until the Davenport Diamond Grade Separation project occurs, if that project restarts.

Part or most of the costs for the underpass will be paid by MetroLinx, hence the delay of their part since it wasn't a priority for them.

 

[ssiguy2]

The thing that always got me with the St.Clair ROW was why they went ahead in the first place.

I don't seem to recall the citizens of the area pounding at CityHall's door demanding a ROW, it seemed more like Miller's and the TTC wishes more than it did the residence. They may have wanted improved transit but that doesn't mean ROW, For the total of $130 million and considering when the St.Clair started Toronto could have gotten 200 new articulated buses. A few could have been run on St.Clair as semi-express buses like the BLine for those who want faster transit and kept the streetcar for more local means. There would have been no disruption and businesses certainly would have liked it more.

The other 190 artic could have been used on other busy routes and increased capacity 50% overnight by retiring the older buses and repair bills on the old buses would have been eliminated and new artic would have been totally accessible. When it comes to bang for the buck I don't think St.Clair was a good investment. It's not so much the money was poorly spent but rather it could have been spent better elsewhere and with BLine on St.Clair people along the corridor would have much faster transit than what they do today regardless of the ROW.

 

[nfitz]

For the total of $130 million

$130 million? The TTC project was about half that. Your including other things in there like the Hydro project and the road rebuild that weren't necessary for the TTC ROW. And even then I don't think the total was quite that high. Even if they had switched it to buses, they would have had to have spent most of that money on the road rebuild and hydro work.

That line moves over 32,000 people a day - about 10 million people a year. The only busier routes north of Bloor are Lawrence East (which runs along Eglinton East from Yonge to Leslie), Finch West, Jane, Don Mills, Eglinton West, and Finch East - all of which are much longer. In terms of passengers per vehicle kilometre only Dundas, Bathurst, Spadina/Harbourfront and the Main bus are busier.

I fail to see why one is questioning such a busy and well-used corridor!

 

[CapitalSeven]

Does this zombie whopper have to keep coming back every couple of months? Let's lay out the facts for 500th time.

The entire roadway, including the tracks, was falling apart and needed to be rebuilt. The question was whether, while doing this, to segregate the tracks in to a right of way. A report recommending this went to the Commission 10 years ago this week, nearly a year before Miller became mayor. The incremental cost of segregating the ROW was fairly minor. As the project went on, the SOS lawsuit and a number of additions to the scope of the rebuilding that had little or nothing to do with the TTC drove the cost of the entire project - not the streetcar track reconstruction - higher and higher.

The only way to have saved any magical $130 million was to let the entire street fall apart for many years, and stop streetcar service altogether. Would that have been worth it?

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

I love the St. Clair ROW as I use it to get around traffic on my motorcycle during peak times

 

[rbt]

$130 million? The TTC project was about half that. Your including other things in there like the Hydro project and the road rebuild that weren't necessary for the TTC ROW. And even then I don't think the total was quite that high. Even if they had switched it to buses, they would have had to have spent most of that money on the road rebuild and hydro work.

The TTC portion for the ROW was actually closer to $5 million (raising the track 6 inches) with the main LRT track rebuild being about $20M.

Sewer, watermain, hydro, sidewalk redesign, contract cancellation fees, court fees, EA costs, communications office costs, full road repaving, intersection redesigns (not necessary for the ROW), ... were the other $100M.

 

[Rainforest]

For the total of $130 million and considering when the St.Clair started Toronto could have gotten 200 new articulated buses. A few could have been run on St.Clair as semi-express buses like the BLine for those who want faster transit and kept the streetcar for more local means. There would have been no disruption and businesses certainly would have liked it more.

The other 190 artic could have been used on other busy routes and increased capacity 50% overnight by retiring the older buses and repair bills on the old buses would have been eliminated and new artic would have been totally accessible. When it comes to bang for the buck I don't think St.Clair was a good investment. It's not so much the money was poorly spent but rather it could have been spent better elsewhere and with BLine on St.Clair people along the corridor would have much faster transit than what they do today regardless of the ROW.

The actual cost of ROW construction was much less than $130 million, as some mentioned above.

Furthermore, ROW is a long-term investment. Additional buses bought today would be gone in 20 years, while the ROW will remain in place.

Express buses wouldn't necessarily be faster during the peak time. Mixed-traffic express vehicles get stuck in traffic just as easily as local vehicles.

Also, operation costs would increase if buses were added to existing streetcars; you would have to pay all drivers, partly for sitting in traffic. On the contrary, ROW can reduce operation costs: as vehicles turn around faster, fewer of them are required to maintain the desired frequency.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

Y'all are arguing with a chimera. Ford Nation knows St. Clair was a disaster and cost over $100M. The fact that neither are true will not in any way, shape, or form deter the Fordites, as they do not acknowledge facts they do not like.

 

[ssiguy2]

Sorry but I thought $100 million was already spent with another $30 upcoming to extend it to Jane.

So what was and is going to be the final pricetag of the transit portion to Jane when it's all said and done and how much EXTRA was the ROW itself if the entire line had to be refurbished with new track? Also how much faster is the streetcar now than it was when it ran in regular traffic?

 

[DSC]

Sorry but I thought $100 million was already spent with another $30 upcoming to extend it to Jane.

So what was and is going to be the final pricetag of the transit portion to Jane when it's all said and done and how much EXTRA was the ROW itself if the entire line had to be refurbished with new track? Also how much faster is the streetcar now than it was when it ran in regular traffic?

There's lots of the St Clair streetcar and its reliability - speed on Steve Munro's blog. See http://stevemunro.ca/?cat=7 In short, it's both faster and more reliable.

 

[junctionist]

Sorry but I thought $100 million was already spent with another $30 upcoming to extend it to Jane.

So what was and is going to be the final pricetag of the transit portion to Jane when it's all said and done and how much EXTRA was the ROW itself if the entire line had to be refurbished with new track? Also how much faster is the streetcar now than it was when it ran in regular traffic?

The streetcar is great with the ROW. It's faster than before and always reliable. It has become a popular service, with seats westbound at St. Clair West Station often hard to come by even in the evenings. It's now a more functional transit line, and the street looks a lot more attractive and metropolitan. I wish they would extend it to Jane already because St. Clair west of Gunn's Loop needs revitalization. It could be a walkable and attractive street, but the transit is poor. The only transit service is provided by the infrequent 71 and 79b buses, and they cover separate parts of the stretch of St. Clair from Scarlett to Gunns Loop. So if you want to go from Jane and St. Clair to somewhere along the St. Clair streetcar line using transit, you have to take the 79b, then the 71, then the 512. You can't have a revitalized, walkable community with transit like that.

 

[drum118]

What did the Ford Nation get from this project.

New waterlines were installed along with underground hydro, Bell & Roger cable, roads were rebuilt and repaved for a smoother ride, better traffic lights, better flow of traffic (other than Keele at peak time) as well other utilities upgrade. Then new trees and flower beds were added along with more parking space. All the streetlights were replace 2th with the most modern ones on the market. Pavers were added to the sidewalks as well at intersections.

The SOS got more green space at the Lansdowne loop including seating tables, real nice looking street fixtures that were specially made for their area.

Now how much did that cost?

The Ford Nation is going to get a new $50m+ Keele Bridge that has no benefit to transit, cycling or the pedestrians at all. This also includes GO Transit, CP Rail and VIA who now have to kick in money for this bridge rebuilding, with no return to them in the way of service or speed. That money could be invested into more transit on the Metrolinx side as well on the city side or the city using for badly needed items.

What did the pedestrians get??

They got new sidewalks that were narrow in various locations, especially at intersections due to traffic needs as well poles in the way. They have to wait longer at intersection due to more time being given to traffic.

Cycle community got zip.

Transit/riders got better & more reliable service to a point, with faster travel time using less equipment so long traffic wasn't blocking it. Still have the 2 hour transfers. Narrow platforms with some protection. Streetcars have no priority over traffic like it should have.

The extra cost for TTC was about $10m more than the plan rebuilt, as it was to cover the extra 6" of concrete for the raise section. They were forced to maintain 3 unneeded stops.

Going west of Gunns loop is more than $30m, as you got to add in the cost of all the lands that have to be purchased on the south side to widen the road, as well doing what was done to the east of it. The $30m cost is only for the ROW. Then we don't have any idea as to what might take place at Jane St now, other than assuming what may take place.

When the time comes to rebuilt the ROW in 25-30 years, the cost will be for the removal only of the concrete between the rails to the sleepers and the rails only. This will only take a faction of the time it takes now to built the whole thing. In 75-100 years, the whole thing will have to be rebuilt, but we will not be around then to worry about it.

 

[junctionist]

In terms of the new underpass and cycling, presumably it'll be less intimidating than cycling through the current underpass with one traffic lane. You've got to have some confidence to do that. I've taken the lane. It's a fairly wide lane, but with the dark underpass, you don't know what to expect in terms of how cars behind you will share the lane. It's not pleasant to walk through the underpass since it's dark during the day and the concrete structure is in bad shape. It's also worth considering the situation for truckers and even TTC buses which struggle to make right turns from Old Weston Road onto St. Clair (westbound where it has a single lane) without hitting poles or the streetcar platform shelter. Also, I don't it's fair to this community not to replace the underpass. The city cut it short when they decided to simply demolish the Old Weston Road bridge over West Toronto Diamond without anything to replace it in the 1980s--a situation that seems quite strange in retrospect. So the city already saved some money via blatant infrastructure neglect in this area. It doesn't deserve any more of that.