TTC: St. Clair Streetcar Right Of Way

[felix123]

I see a combination of 3 factors that work against the idea of extending the streetcar up Bathurst:

1) Bathurst is narrow south of Wilson; a streetcar would have to run in mixed traffic. A long continuous streetcar route would be less reliable than the 511.

Actually, 511 isn't bad despite running in mixed traffic. The relatively short length, about 6 km each way, probably helps. But if the line gets longer, a delay in any spot will affect the whole line.

2) If a long line is not desired because of the reliability concerns, then the subway station at Bloor is a good location to terminate both the southern and the northern service.

3) Although Bathurst has decent ridership, it is well below other busiest bus corridors. Currently, Bathurst #7 is served with antics running on something 9 min headways. If more capacity is desired, it is far cheaper and less disruptive to improve the frequency to every 6 min or every 5 min.

There is a possibility of building actual LRT in the north section of Bathurst (from Wilson to Steeles and then to the Promenade Mall). It could have dedicated lanes for most of the length, possibly combined with a short underground section under 1.5 km of Wilson to feed into the Wilson subway station. Not a top priority, but something to keep in mind.

Not directing this specifically at you by any means, but I wonder if the real reason that pretty much no one here thinks that running a streetcar to St. Clair West is viable is simply because the service doesn't already exist.
If it did, I can't imagine forumers calling for its replacement by a bus.

Check out the Streetcar thread by Wolfewood here: https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/ttc-streetcar-network.27667/

They post several reasonable ideas for expansion, and in the very next post, literally every single idea is shut down because, essentially, the next poster can't fathom anything beyond than the current network.

 

[muller877]

Not directing this specifically at you by any means, but I wonder if the real reason that pretty much no one here thinks that running a streetcar to St. Clair West is viable is simply because the service doesn't already exist.
If it did, I can't imagine forumers calling for its replacement by a bus.

Check out the Streetcar thread by Wolfewood here: https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/ttc-streetcar-network.27667/

They post several reasonable ideas for expansion, and in the very next post, literally every single idea is shut down because, essentially, the next poster can't fathom anything beyond than the current network.

When I ride the 7 bus a significant portion of users (most?) are going north of St Clair. If you introduce the streetcar to St Clair will you force them to then switch to the 511 to get to Bloor? Or will we duplicate service (and the added cost thereon)?

Once the Crosstown is up and running there may be a different travel pattern but not worth looking at until then.

 

[smallspy]

Not directing this specifically at you by any means, but I wonder if the real reason that pretty much no one here thinks that running a streetcar to St. Clair West is viable is simply because the service doesn't already exist.
If it did, I can't imagine forumers calling for its replacement by a bus.

No. The reason it doesn't exist is that it doesn't make sense to do it. Read back at the previous comments in this thread.

Check out the Streetcar thread by Wolfewood here: https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/ttc-streetcar-network.27667/

They post several reasonable ideas for expansion, and in the very next post, literally every single idea is shut down because, essentially, the next poster can't fathom anything beyond than the current network.

To the contrary, I think that Megaton327's rebuttal was well-thought out and reasonable. If money was no object than sure, let's run streetcars everywhere. But they cost more to maintain and operate, and while they can carry more people than a bus route, because of that cost difference there needs to be a bit of a critical mass before the TTC can justify installing the tracks and overhead.

The costing is over 20 years out of date, but the TTC did produce a report on just this kind of thing - it may be a good idea to read through and see what kind of process they have to go through to see if a route is justifiable. https://www.transit.toronto.on.ca/archives/reports/opportunities_for_new_streetcar_routes.pdf

Dan

 

[amnesiajune]

When I ride the 7 bus a significant portion of users (most?) are going north of St Clair. If you introduce the streetcar to St Clair will you force them to then switch to the 511 to get to Bloor? Or will we duplicate service (and the added cost thereon)?

Are those people going north of St Clair coming from somewhere along Bloor-Danforth, or are they just taking Bloor-Danforth because that happens to be where the bus ends? It’s fully possible that the average passenger will get better service if the 7 bus takes them to St Clair West instead of Bathurst. Perhaps it also takes a tiny bit of load off the Yonge side as well, since people might stick to a one-seat ride down University who are currently taking the B-D Line and transferring at Yonge.

 

[Leo_Chan]

Are those people going north of St Clair coming from somewhere along Bloor-Danforth, or are they just taking Bloor-Danforth because that happens to be where the bus ends? It’s fully possible that the average passenger will get better service if the 7 bus takes them to St Clair West instead of Bathurst. Perhaps it also takes a tiny bit of load off the Yonge side as well, since people might stick to a one-seat ride down University who are currently taking the B-D Line and transferring at Yonge.

Why not both? Detour the bus off of Bathurst to serve the St Claire West loop and then turn return and go down Bathurst.

 

[amnesiajune]

Why not both? Detour the bus off of Bathurst to serve the St Claire West loop and then turn return and go down Bathurst.

Because that would be an unnecessary duplication of service if the 511 is extended north to St Clair West (which is the whole point of this).

 

[Rainforest]

It’s fully possible that the average passenger will get better service if the 7 bus takes them to St Clair West instead of Bathurst.

That's possible, but I doubt it because the Spadina subway line runs very close to Bathurst. Most of riders who want to connect to Spadina subway, will take a shorter bus ride (Eglinton, Glencair, Lawrence, Wilson, Sheppard) to the closest subway station, rather than stay on the Bathurst bus. Those who take the Bathurst bus are more likely to travel to the Bloor subway intentionally.

In addition, the loop capacities should not be ignored. The St Clair West underground loop looks large, but is used somewhat inefficiently because both the eastbound and the westbound streetcars have to go around it in a single file. Besides the streetcars, it only serves a couple of infrequent local bus routes, and it doesn't have much space left. An attempt to add 2 more frequent routes, the 511 and the 7, will likely result in a massive gridlock.

In contrast, the Bathurst station at Bloor has an untypically large loop at the surface, and easily handles both the 511 and the 7.

 

[Jaye101]

It would be nice to see the 511 extended to Eglinton. If it's possible to build a loop into the Line 5 station at grade, I couldn't imagine it costing much. And for a pretty significant benefit.

 

[drum118]

It would be nice to see the 511 extended to Eglinton. If it's possible to build a loop into the Line 5 station at grade, I couldn't imagine it costing much. And for a pretty significant benefit.

Gee!!...................Have you looked at that intersection before construction as well seeing what the station area is going to look like after construction??? If so, you have your answer as why it would not fit a streetcar/bus loop there. Then what do you think it will cost to build that loop??

To get 511 up to Eglinton, let alone to Steeles will require all on street parking to be remove at great yelling from the folks who park there. A bridge or two will have to be rebuilt to handle the streetcar load. Not on TTC radar period and if so, way down the list of other routes that should be done before 511 based on ridership numbers. Can you say Dufferin as #1??

 

[W. K. Lis]

...
To get 511 up to Eglinton, let alone to Steeles will require all on street parking to be remove at great yelling from the folks who park there. A bridge or two will have to be rebuilt to handle the streetcar load. Not on TTC radar period and if so, way down the list of other routes that should be done before 511 based on ridership numbers. Can you say Dufferin as #1??

With any cars parked on a bus route results in the buses having to act like streetcars, boarding or egressing from the left lane. Even if their rear-end sticking out because of the parked cars.

From link.

 

[Jaye101]

Gee!!...................Have you looked at that intersection before construction as well seeing what the station area is going to look like after construction??? If so, you have your answer as why it would not fit a streetcar/bus loop there. Then what do you think it will cost to build that loop??

To get 511 up to Eglinton, let alone to Steeles will require all on street parking to be remove at great yelling from the folks who park there. A bridge or two will have to be rebuilt to handle the streetcar load. Not on TTC radar period and if so, way down the list of other routes that should be done before 511 based on ridership numbers. Can you say Dufferin as #1??

Understandably, Dufferin is priority. But laying streetcar trackage from St Clair to Eglinton isn’t exactly a great feat of engineering. Especially if the bridge over Cedarvale ravine can handle the additional load.

On street loop?

After all, Eglinton is the new Bloor.

 

[smallspy]

Especially if the bridge over Cedarvale ravine can handle the additional load.

For the record, the bridge over the Cedarvale Ravine was designed specifically with streetcars in mind.

I don't necessarily disagree with the idea of extending the Bathurst car up to Eglinton as a theory, but in my mind there are two quibbles: one, an on-street loop is not an option. Cars need to turn back at the station, and there needs to be a location for buses to turn back as well. The second is an answer that no one will have for many years, and that is: will the traffic patterns justify it? Once the Crosstown is running, will enough people be using Eglinton as a transfer point, and will the ridership to the section south of Eglinton increase enough to justify building the 2+km of double-track (not to mention whatever structure is used for the loop).

Dan

 

[W. K. Lis]

The removal of the Old Weston Road bridge in 1983 was a mistake. They should have replaced it, maybe improved and extended it north over (or under) ALL the railway tracks.

See link for article on Where Dupont meets Dundas meets Annette

https://www.bricoleurbanism.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/westtordiamond_map-1961_e.jpg

Map of track and street layout in 1961 with the CP station in orange and the stairway at the red dot (original map from Old Time Trains here)

The Old Weston Road bridge in 1920, with the CP station in the top right corner (from Old Time Trains here)

 

[Towered]

The removal of the Old Weston Road bridge in 1983 was a mistake. They should have replaced it, maybe improved and extended it north over (or under) ALL the railway tracks.

See link for article on Where Dupont meets Dundas meets Annette

https://www.bricoleurbanism.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/westtordiamond_map-1961_e.jpg

Map of track and street layout in 1961 with the CP station in orange and the stairway at the red dot (original map from Old Time Trains here)

The Old Weston Road bridge in 1920, with the CP station in the top right corner (from Old Time Trains here)

Where did the bridge connect to on the north end? It's not shown on that map.

 

[KevinT]

Where did the bridge connect to on the north end? It's not shown on that map.

The Old Weston Rd bridge connected Old Weston Rd south of the junction to Old Weston Rd north of the junction.