Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

[BurlOak]

When I last checked over a year ago, mainly due to the technical challenges of crossing the WestDonValley, a westward extension of the Sheppard STUBway line from Yonge (actually Senlac tailtrack) to the current Downsview Station at Allen Road with only one new station at Bathurst was estimated by City Staff to cost $2.3 Billion.

The current 50+ year-old bridge isn't engineered for subway and would require a new bridge,.... and I'm hearing estimates of about $1 billion for the bridge!

Your $100 million per km bridge is sort of in line with our infamous Southbound Yonge to Eastbound 401 Fly-Over ramp,... really a one lane bridge spanning about 600m with estimated cost of $50 million (5 years ago).

Bridge prices will of course vary on height, length, design, material, load requirement, etc,...

The current Sheppard Bridge is a cheap half-bridge in that (as any cyclist is aware) the roadway goes halfway down the valley where you find a shorter and lower bridge,... VS the ridge-to-ridge Hoggs Hollow Bridges on Highway 401 that's so flat you're not even aware you're on a bridge (unless you notice the valley). Subway will prefer a very flat bridge.
View attachment 137904

View attachment 137905

With this bridge cost, this will likely reopen that Subway VS LRT debate,... and if Sheppard STUBway should be converted to LRT, and will Sheppard East be LRT or Subway,... hmmmm,... of course all this will be settled on the first day Doug Ford becomes Premier! Three more months to go!

Maybe more accurately, bridge cost of $10,000 /m2 is more accurate - I assumed a 10m wide subway bridge. With complexities, cost could be double that, and maybe double again if some type of fancy signature bridge is built (i.e. cable stayed). The Sheppard crossing is pretty straight forward as cranes and other equipment can easily go into the valley.
One option is to built one subway bridge (for Eastbound and Westbound) on either side of the existing bridge. The 2 streams of the subway would be separated by some distance due to the center platform Senlac station, so it would not be that difficult. The problem is that you now have a 60 year old bridge (the earliest this would be built), with maybe 25 years left in it, sandwiched between 2 new bridges with 100 year design lives. To replace the centre portion, there would be very tight construction, and no ability to stage traffic - so it would likely have to be one lane in each direction as each half bridge is built.

I would assume it would be preferable to build a whole new bridge. As you suggest, it would be a higher bridge with subway underneath. The current bridge is about 300m long. Assuming the subway is 5m below the road, and the embankments are at 10% slope, it would add about 100m to the length of the bridge.
Cost. The new bridge would be 400m long. The bridge width would be about 22m (four lanes 3.5m wide, 2 bike lanes 2.0m wide, sidewalks 1.7m wide, and barriers 300mm wide). That's a deck area of 8800 m2. That works out to about $88M. Add 50% for complexity and extra design strength needed to carry the load of 2 levels, and add 33% for traffic staging and miscellaneous earthworks. Thus, I would put the cost at $175M

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

Maybe more accurately, bridge cost of $10,000 /m2 is more accurate - I assumed a 10m wide subway bridge. With complexities, cost could be double that, and maybe double again if some type of fancy signature bridge is built (i.e. cable stayed). The Sheppard crossing is pretty straight forward as cranes and other equipment can easily go into the valley.
One option is to built one subway bridge (for Eastbound and Westbound) on either side of the existing bridge. The 2 streams of the subway would be separated by some distance due to the center platform Senlac station, so it would not be that difficult. The problem is that you now have a 60 year old bridge (the earliest this would be built), with maybe 25 years left in it, sandwhiched between 2 new bridges with 100 year design lives. To replace the centre portion

I think CityStaff is getting their $1 Billion cost estimate as a huge ridge-to-ridge double decker bridge,... and then add the City regular overcharge.

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

This seems decent and a good way of connecting the area. Not sure about the hanging bridge below the 401... a new structure might be better. But no question it connects a lot of pockets, and allows NYC to be less of an isolated pocket for those on two wheels or on foot. Wonder if another idea may be a short ped/bike tunnel along Yonge for the section below the 401.

Why build a new tunnel when just 180m west of Yonge,... there's already a safe separate-grade crossing of Highway 401 (as indicated in first north-south red-line); it's really an under-utilized MTO dirt service road where valley ridge meets Hogg Hollow bridges:

This is what it actually looks like from north side of 401 looking south,.... at lower deck level,... about 30 feet high and 25 feet wide with hill side that can be dug out for 50 feet width before hitting bridge structure in hillside:

 

[BurlOak]

I think CityStaff is getting their $1 Billion cost estimate as a huge ridge-to-ridge double decker bridge,... and then add the City regular overcharge.

Sorry, I clicked "post" prematurely.
I can't see $1B being any realistic estimate - even tunneling from Yonge to Bathurst it seems a bit high.

Here's a story about the subway bridge over the East Don. It was more complex, as it was required to overtop during flood conditions, and that required a huge horizontal force due to stream flow. https://www.canadianconsultingengineer.com/features/civil-sheppard-subway-don-river-bridge/

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

Sorry, I clicked "post" prematurely.
I can't see $1B being any realistic estimate - even tunneling from Yonge to Bathurst it seems a bit high.

Here's a story about the subway bridge over the East Don. It was more complex, as it was required to overtop during flood conditions, and that required a huge horizontal force due to stream flow. https://www.canadianconsultingengineer.com/features/civil-sheppard-subway-don-river-bridge/

Thanks BurlOak, that article is a good read. I never knew that subway bridge was flood proof,.... I always assumed it was just entombed in concrete so subway noise wouldn't disturb North York General Hospital.

 

[BurlOak]

Why build a new tunnel when just 180m west of Yonge,... there's already a safe separate-grade crossing of Highway 401 (as indicated in first north-south red-line); it's really an under-utilized MTO dirt service road where valley ridge meets Hogg Hollow bridges:
View attachment 137909

This is what it actually looks like from north side of 401 looking south,.... at lower deck level,... about 30 feet high and 25 feet wide with hill side that can be dug out for 50 feet width before hitting bridge structure in hillside:
View attachment 137910

Putting a bike path through that end span does seem quite possible. I would guess that was a construction access road and not used for ongoing access.
In Oakville on QEW, there is Kerr Street and Bronte street where the 2 lane roads were actually added under the end spans after construction. At Bronte Road, Bronte was widened to 4 lanes, which meant a new bridge was needed immediately to the east, and the end span was retained for the bike lane.
https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.4105715,-79.7389058,1045m/data=!3m1!1e3

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

Putting a bike path through that end span does seem quite possible. I would guess that was a construction access road and not used for ongoing access.
In Oakville on QEW, there is Kerr Street and Bronte street where the 2 lane roads were actually added under the end spans after construction. At Bronte Road, Bronte was widened to 4 lanes, which meant a new bridge was needed immediately to the east, and the end span was retained for the bike lane.
https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.4105715,-79.7389058,1045m/data=!3m1!1e3

Yes, it's a construction access road used when they do bridge re-decking work - which they finished about 6 years ago,... so it'll be empty for another 20-30 years! Re-decking 401 eastbound express in Summer 2011:

Even though, MTO has CycleON policy as guidelines for municipalities on how to build safe cycling infrastructure near highway interchanges; the MTO has rejected multiple request from the City to use MTO's under-utilized and basically abandoned (as illustrated above) property and infrastructure at Yonge-401 to build safe cycling infrastructure.

And the real kicker,... every single Provincial riding around Yonge-401 is Liberal,... not just Liberal but powerful Liberals: Ministers, Deputy-Ministers and Premier,... and they don't get anything done for Yonge-401,... cycling infrastructure or even traffic congestion! Arghh,.... can I cast my Doug Ford vote now???

 

[Edward Skira]

Is that access road easy to reach or is it fenced off? @sunnyraytoronto

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

Is that access road easy to reach or is it fenced off? @sunnyraytoronto

Define "fenced off",....

Technically, the MTO just put in a new fence last Fall since the old one had so many holes and openings,... but there's still enough access points where fence climbing isn't required! And right now since the Don Valley Golf Course haven't opened for the season yet (usually open mid-April), the grounds at valley bottom are open for public use,... Note: this conceptual off-road multi-use trail stays at valley ridge so it's flat and cycling-friendly,...


Define "easy to reach",...

Path shown in purple-line north-west of Yonge-401 interchange:
https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threa...xtension-proposed.20503/page-137#post-1317984

In the YouTube video by CycleToronto posted by W.K.Lis shows how to get there from 1:20 to 2:00
https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threa...xtension-proposed.20503/page-136#post-1317811

On the southbound Yonge to westbound 401 on-ramp, there's a gate to a Service Road (lead to service emergency TTC exit at bottom of valley) Gate usually locked on weekend and if open Monday to Friday usually MTO/contractor nearby,....

Going through gate and travelling along paved Service Road for about 150m:

Until you reach a dirt trail that goes under bridge structure near valley ridge

That leads to this separate grade crossing of 401,...

Note: the other side requires a bit of hiking to get to Radio Tower which has paved Service Road and then Golf Course driveway leading to William Carson Crescent,....


In the past, I've lead numerous "Jane-Walks" / hiking-tour for various local groups, special interest groups, politicians, City Staff from various departments, and yes,... even MTO! showcasing the potential here; especially since the large infrastructure are already in place, its really just connecting the dots between under-utilized Service Roads and dirt-construction path (used once every 25-40 years!),... so right now, there's lots of in-between places where you'd be carrying a bike!


Now,... define "Tresspassing",...

There's NO Tresspassing signage posted throughout the area around Hoggs Hollow Bridges,... MTO and their contractors, might occasionally have someone there Monday to Friday,.... hmmm,...

 

[Edward Skira]

Answers my questions

Going to check it out some weekend.

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

Answers my questions

Going to check it out some weekend.

Let me know if you need a guide,... otherwise,...

From the north (on weekend, the Gate is locked but most can roll under), I would suggest going:
- west along Franklin Ave
- then south along Stuart Greenbelt (marked in dotted purple line); the tributary/river is buried here with old (1940's?) asphalt trail on top that has disintegrated!
- just before you reach West Don River turn left (east) - follow well worn walking/hiking trail
- when you come across the fencing for the Service Road - turn right (south) and go under Hogg Hollow Bridges
- Here, on map - you're following the Solid Purple U-Shape path just east of the river
- follow the dog paw prints south and you'll figure how to go around the fence without climbing! Dogs are smart!
- at the end of the Service Road - bottom of Valley - you'll find this bunker-type TTC emergency exit/substation built into the side of the hill (red-X on map)
- near the top of that same Service Road at valley ridge is the separate grade crossing of 401 just under bridge deck.

 

[Cobra]

Sheppard Subway is being discussed in council right now. There's a push to get the subway to Victoria Park

It was first specific to the Consumers Road business area to direct city staff with a review of the cost between LRT (between Don Mills & Victoria Park) and subway.

Other councilors are trying to hijack it to include reviews for Sheppard West and to McCowan

*Didn't know that Consumers was the 2nd biggest employment node outside of downtown

Motion to update the cost from the 2007 EA and ridership LRT vs Subway carries 21-14

 

[Leo_Chan]

Sheppard Subway is being discussed in council right now. There's a push to get the subway to Victoria Park

It was first specific to the Consumers Road business area to direct city staff with a review of the cost between LRT (between Don Mills & Victoria Park) and subway.

Other councilors are trying to hijack it to include reviews for Sheppard West and to McCowan

*Didn't know that Consumers was the 2nd biggest employment node outside of downtown

Motion to update the cost from the 2007 EA and ridership LRT vs Subway carries 21-14

Relief Line North to Victoria Park now possible?

 

[kEiThZ]

I still think, if they are going to build a subway, Agincourt makes more of a natural terminus, aside from STC. Especially with RER coming some day.

 

[Leo_Chan]

This council video is just annoying. The councillor just wanted to know the cost and benefits of subway to Consumers vs “current” LRT plan, and if the City/TTC couldn’t provide this information, then he’ll still be fine. But then others “question” the info request by asking why not to McCowan? And the stupid “North York Relief Line” to Sheppard West. It’s unbelievable that “questions” were asked that were so outside of the scope of the item. That’s Council for you!