TTC: Sheppard Subway Expansion (Speculative)

[sixrings]

hh
Well I disagree with an extension to square one. The main reason is that it would simply be too long a line. I mean it would be a hour 1/2 subway ride downtown. Why wouldnt someone choose to take GO instead. however Id like to see an extension behind dundas with some a couple stops that could help revitalize Dundas West and then a terminus at Sherway. GO really needs to help out SQ1.

 

[EnviroTO]

And if Ford can get some of his private money we could milk another station out of it possibly.

Be serious. The only way to get private money now is to pay it back twofold later. There is no free money.

 

[GenerationW]

So we want to build subways to ease rush hour traffic around a mall now? Back in the old days we used to build subways to replace trunk lines that carried 10,000pph. No wonder the TTC loses so much money nowadays.

What did Yonge carry north of Eglinton before the subway was extended to Finch?

 

[sixrings]

What did Yonge carry north of Eglinton before the subway was extended to Finch?

i dont really like this argument since just like the viaduct and highways it appears to have just helped the case for sprawl. really the drl should be the priority because its the one area in the city which we should be making more dense. also it is the only part of the city that sees substantial residential and office growth.

 

[GenerationW]

The DRL should be the priority but it isn't, it hasn't been, and there's no indication it will be anytime soon, so it's rather pointless talking about it.

 

[sixrings]

The DRL should be the priority but it isn't, it hasn't been, and there's no indication it will be anytime soon, so it's rather pointless talking about it.

i partially agree. bit your previous comment could lead one to justify subways to square one or up to wonderland. just because we kept extending our subways in the past vs making lines like queen or a drl doesnt mean we should continue the trend.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

The DRL should be the priority but it isn't, it hasn't been, and there's no indication it will be anytime soon, so it's rather pointless talking about it.

That's a rather negative view on the situation, should we just accept whatever the planners give us? Toronto was ready to rip up it's streetcar network until Streetcars for Toronto showed up, same with the Spadina expressway until Jane Jacobs showed up.

Just because it's not on the agenda, does not mean that a little bit of grassroots pressure can't put it on the agenda. In fact I believe if we (as a transit enthusiast group) spent less time arguing about this Transit City line vs. that, whether to use BRT, LRT, or HRT on which route, etc, etc; and more time pushing for a DRL first and foremost (which I assume almost 90% of us support) that we'd actually push the transit agenda much further.

I'm tired of people simply accepting what we are given, the "well it's planned and ready to go, so we might as well build it" attitude has got to go and it has to start here within the transit enthusiast network first before it reaches the broader public.

 

[GenerationW]

your previous comment could lead one to justify subways to square one or up to wonderland.

No one is seriously proposing those particular extensions.

just because we kept extending our subways in the past vs making lines like queen or a drl doesnt mean we should continue the trend.

Extensions to existing lines within Toronto's borders are politically popular, so they're not going away any time soon, if ever.

 

[gweed123]

That's a rather negative view on the situation, should we just accept whatever the planners give us? Toronto was ready to rip up it's streetcar network until Streetcars for Toronto showed up, same with the Spadina expressway until Jane Jacobs showed up.

Just because it's not on the agenda, does not mean that a little bit of grassroots pressure can't put it on the agenda. In fact I believe if we (as a transit enthusiast group) spent less time arguing about this Transit City line vs. that, whether to use BRT, LRT, or HRT on which route, etc, etc; and more time pushing for a DRL first and foremost (which I assume almost 90% of us support) that we'd actually push the transit agenda much further.

I'm tired of people simply accepting what we are given, the "well it's planned and ready to go, so we might as well build it" attitude has got to go and it has to start here within the transit enthusiast network first before it reaches the broader public.

While this has merit, I think that at this point diverting funding to a completely new project that doesn't even have a finished study isn't very wise. Get what's already on the table started, and then when the talks start about "where do we go from here?", THEN start a major lobby for the DRL.

The only single project with enough dollars currently on the books to cover the cost of the DRL is the Eglinton LRT, and I think we can all agree that seeing that project stopped dead in its tracks for the 2nd time in under 20 years isn't something any of us want to see.

Don't worry, there will come a time, say around 2015, when the Spadina extension is open, the Eglinton LRT is well under construction, and the Finch BRT is operating, that we can start discussing what the next move is. Don't forget, the next round of transit funding is probably going to be heavily reliant on road toll money, so that's the battle we should start to focus on now. Get the road tolls in place, and then look at the DRL as a way of relieving urban congestion.

Having said that though, if the Province mysteriously came up with an additional $4B for transit, the DRL would be #1 on my list, with electrified all-day GO service being a close 2nd.

 

[GenerationW]

That's a rather negative view on the situation, should we just accept whatever the planners give us? Toronto was ready to rip up it's streetcar network until Streetcars for Toronto showed up, same with the Spadina expressway until Jane Jacobs showed up.

Just because it's not on the agenda, does not mean that a little bit of grassroots pressure can't put it on the agenda. In fact I believe if we (as a transit enthusiast group) spent less time arguing about this Transit City line vs. that, whether to use BRT, LRT, or HRT on which route, etc, etc; and more time pushing for a DRL first and foremost (which I assume almost 90% of us support) that we'd actually push the transit agenda much further.

I'm tired of people simply accepting what we are given, the "well it's planned and ready to go, so we might as well build it" attitude has got to go and it has to start here within the transit enthusiast network first before it reaches the broader public.

Fair enough, but see what response you get when you email Toronto councilors about the DRL. The reply (if you get one) is usually either lukewarm or something resembling a form letter.

And the DRL advocacy website (drlnow.com) hasn't been updated since July 2010.

Toronto will not focus an ounce of energy towards the DRL until its hand is forced by York Region finalizing financing for the Yonge extension, which I believe will likely happen before the end of the decade.

 

[kEiThZ]

We've discussed the time savings in detail before. Even the Sheppard East Rocket takes 12 minutes to go the 3 km to Warden in PM rush hour. That's 15 km/hr. The LRT will take 8 minutes at 23 km/hr (and likely faster, probably 7 minutes, as about 1/3 of that is completely underground). Transfer times will be greatly reduced as you don't have to climb up forever from the platform to the current terminal. What takes about 16 minutes now, should take 8-9 minutes. That's significant saving. And that's only for those that go 25% down the track.

So about the same as the subway? But with substantially faster travel times for those working at Consumers.

For those going the 9 km to Markham Road, the travel time is currently 37 minutes (and that assumes the bus is on time!). With LRT it becomes about 23 minutes. If the subway is extended to Victoria Park, you'll have about 4 minutes on the subway, and a 28-minute ride on the bus. That's 32 minutes.

So 23 minutes if you spend the $billion on LRT, but 32 minutes if you spend it on subway?

You're completely ignoring the impacts of even a mild BRT solution on this route. Queue jumps, curbside bus lanes, and signal priority would achieve most of what the LRT intended to do (and that's where most of the speed benefits of LRT come from anyway). Add those in and then tell me what the difference will be?

And again you ignore what I've been saying all along. It's not about the next 5, 10, or 15 years. I fully accept that the subway will be marginally slower than the LRT...if it's terminating at Vic Park. But here's the thing. Every eastward expansion changes those metrics. By the time you get to Agincourt, the LRT will start to look pretty slow.

I view this expansion as one piece of a puzzle. The real benefit to this city comes when Sheppard is finished as (or as close to) intended. When it runs from Agincourt till Downsview, travel patterns in the northern half of the city will be quite different. And they will be a lot faster than LRT would ever have been.

But yes, if you are only thinking about the next decade, then LRT is the way to go.

Tell me, do you send your kids to private school to give them the best now and skip saving for college?

If we're going to spend $500 million/km for subways, we should be doing it where it's more needed. Yonge north of Finch. Downtown Relief line.

1 Billion won't get you any sort of DRL. And why bother with Yonge, when you can negotiate a good deal on that with Provincial government when York region wants it? Moreover, the feds have earmarked $300 million+ for Sheppard. That goes bye-bye if you spend on another corridor. Why turn down "free" money? And you'll still have a mess on Sheppard....

 

[Dan416]

hh
Well I disagree with an extension to square one. The main reason is that it would simply be too long a line. I mean it would be a hour 1/2 subway ride downtown. Why wouldnt someone choose to take GO instead. however Id like to see an extension behind dundas with some a couple stops that could help revitalize Dundas West and then a terminus at Sherway. GO really needs to help out SQ1.

Wake up. People are ALREADY spending 1.5 hours to get from downtown to MCC by subway and bus.

Regardless, a Dundas subway wouldn't just serve people going downtown. It would serve one of the busiest routes in Mississauga (2nd busiest I'd guess after Hurontario) and hit half a dozen major streets: Hurontario, Dixie, Cawthra, Tomken, East Mall, West Mall.

I really think a Bloor extension along Dundas would be more useful than Sheppard.

 

[noctis]

I say we build the whole Eglinton LRT above ground and extend it to the airport. With the leftover cash, build the DRL. When these two projects are done, we can then start thinking about the Yonge/Finch North, Sheppard, and Finch East/West extensions. Time to get some shovels on the ground!

 

[gweed123]

I say we build the whole Eglinton LRT above ground

Say what???

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I say we build the whole Eglinton LRT above ground and extend it to the airport. With the leftover cash, build the DRL. When these two projects are done, we can then start thinking about the Yonge/Finch North, Sheppard, and Finch East/West extensions. Time to get some shovels on the ground!

Say what???

From Black Creek To Bayview Mt Pleasant it should be underground but Keele to Renforth Laird to Highway 2 should be above ground.