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TTC: Sheppard Subway Expansion (Speculative)

KeithZ:

If you compare Toronto and Paris, my favorite city, the two cities have similar population, yet Toronto's land (630sq km) is exactly 6 times of the City of Paris (105 sq km), which mean the entire Toronto population can fit in 1/6 of its current area, how big will that be? I did some work on the map, and the area covers Lake Ontario to the south, Lawrence Ave to the North, DVP to the East and Keele to the West. The entire great city of Paris fits in this area, yet Toronto has to spread as far as 6 times large. If that's not sprawl, I don't know what it.

Imagine how life will be easier if Toronto is the size of Paris, without all those either vacant or extremely sparsely populated areas where I have to build subways to, yet Toronto will be much denser and more vibrant on the street.

Hey. I like Europe too. I have family in Vienna and London that I visit often enough. And I do like their transit systems. But the reality is that Toronto is not a European city. Our city didn't get mostly grow during the pre-industrial era where transport distances were essentially limited to foot travel for most.

We are where we are. And while we can certainly plan for more densification, suggesting that we should essentially limit all transit development to 1/6th of the city because that where people should have lived all along is draconian and simply unsellable. Quite frankly it just isn't going to happen with property prices the way they are. And nor will the public tolerate such restricting policies.

You want European density? Just look at what was accomplished on north Yonge and Sheppard. That's a lot closer than anything that would happened on the whole half of Sheppard East that was literally backyards (stable neighbourhoods not to be rezoned).
 
If you look at the tube map of London, it is the same. Every line cross the city center, or goes just by the periphery of it (the circle line).

London-Underground-Tube-Map-.gif


I can predict if a full Sheppard/Finch line is built, more than 90% of its rides' destination is some station on Yonge St, or downtown.

London's core is also huge and served by several hubs. With lines criss-crossing all over the place. And the subway lines extend pretty damn far. Ever taken the Northern Line? The last stop is a few mins by car from open fields. They may have many lines that criss-cross the core, but the beauty of their transit system is that it makes every part of the city accessible by higher-order transit.
 
Anyone arguing for expansion in the suburbs right now must be blinded by their living there. Only someone who is totally biased and self-centered would suggest that the Sheppard line deserves any kind of priority - much less this absolute absurdity of extending the subways further and further north. GO trains can take care of that, they are much more efficient means of transporting people that distance, objectively.

Finch should be the last station on Yonge for the foreseeable future, while I support an extension to York University due to its prominence as a destination. At rush hour people living south of Sheppard right now can hardly get on the subway because of the entitled suburbanites who have crowded the subways.

A downtown relief line must be the absolute priority right now, followed by an Eglinton line, followed by whatever else further from the core.

Frankly we could use a subway extension to mississauga more than markham.

the problem is that this is all politics. miller had the right idea of saying that the city would not extend to richmond hill if funds werent in place for a drl at the same time. this tactic with enough time surely have won out as richmond hill and markham hill people would be dying for a extension when gas prices keep going up and up. another option not often discussed is the use of the olympic games. the olympic games on the eastern waterfront would only be possible with new transit infrastructure or in otherwords a drl. a olympics also forces all three levels of government to work on something together financially.

in the meantime lrt lines should be fairly cost efficent to build on most main suburban streets. i use the blue night map as a indicator for where lines could go. the suburbs warrent expansion just not subway expansion.

the issue of sheppard will always come up tho because it has already been started. some will argue that if its started it should be finished. others would say cut your loses. others including myself think a sheppard conversion is the appropriate compromise.
 
What frustrates me is that "the people [in the outer 416] have spoken!" Street-grade LRT is not good enough. It's subways (in this case, two for Scarborough) or nothing. Which IMO is rubbish. What about Etobicoke?

1) What about Etobicoke?

2) Voters in Scarborough are rightfully frustrated because every major subway project seems to stop dead at the Scarborough border. I was in elementary and high school when there was talk of bringing the Bloor-Danforth to STC and getting rid of the SRT, because thousands of residents detest that transfer. At the time of course, people dismissed it and moved on to the Sheppard subway, which in due course ended...right before it touched Scarborough. Naturally, residents there are frustrated.

Most didn't support LRT not because they love cars (as is often asserted here...because of crackpots like Save our Sheppard), it's because most didn't think LRT was fast enough. And there was a fear that once the LRTs were built Scarborough would be stuck with slow transit for a generation.

The reason they support subways is because subways are associated with speed. I'd argue that this is exactly why GO and TTC need to integrated with places like Scarborough reconfiguring transit to focus bus services on GO stations which would bring Scarborough commuters to the core quickly. But in the absence of something like this, don't expect commuters who face 1.5-2 hr commutes to settle for billion dollar LRTs that knock off a mere 10 mins.

New York only has one subway line solely outside of Manhattan; the 'G'. Even then, that line runs close to Manhattan...it's the equivalent of St Clair. If you want to take a subway from the Bronx to Queens, or Staten Island to Brooklyn, or Brooklyn to the Bronx; you have to go through Manhattan. Otherwise, it's a bus trip.

We shouldn't build subways that cater to suburb-to-suburb commuting, because the demand doesn't exist for that. That's why Sheppard will always be a feeder line.

At least New York has subways that go into the boroughs. Toronto barely has that. Nobody would be arguing for Sheppard if the North-South line on Yonge was instead a diagonal line cutting across northeastern Toronto. As it stands, Yonge is far for all of Scarborough. Hence you need some kind of service to bring people to it.

A DRL along Don Mills would probably lessen demand for a Sheppard East extension. But then again, extending any DRL north would probably happen after Sheppard was extended.

As for the general comparison to New York and other cities, you can't make them 1 to 1. The contexts are very different and those have to be taken into account.

We don't have the population or density of New York. We never will. Our citie is not compose of island boroughs. We will never be Paris or London either. Our cities weren't built around highly dense ancient cores. And unlike Europe where their largest cities are also usually their capitals and sole world-class city, Toronto increasingly has to compete with Vancouver, Calgary and Montreal for attention in a country the size of a continent.

I'd say our best bet now is making GO a true suburban rail service, a la Paris RER or German S-bahns. Integrate the TTC and start directing buses to the GO stations. Do that and it'll become very easy to restrict subway development to the core. But otherwise, until something is done to drastically improve travel times for outer 416 commuters, expect them to cast ballots for politicians promising to cut their travel times.
 
the point of the G is to connect NYC's secondary centres (Downtown Brooklyn and Long Island City) while Sheppard connects to the North York Centre area and Eglinton connects to Yonge & Eglinton.

I have no problem with the G or any crosstown route for that matter. I get the concept of connecting employment and residential zones outside the core of a city. What I have a problem with is starting two high order rapid transit lines that have the same destination (Scarborough Centre).

At the end of the day, one is superfluous...especially considering how expensive it is and how behind we are with regards to transit expansion.

Sheppard between Yonge and Don Mills had almost 20 years to build up its density. But all I see are condos, not office buildings. Yonge between Sheppard and Finch has high density. But it’s linear development, not nodal. A block east and west is semi-affluent suburbia (i.e people who put driving ahead of transit).
 
As I mentioned earlier, the entire population of Paris (2.2M) managed to fit into 1/6 of Toronto's current land area. Policies and infrastructure should be determined to encourage high density within the downtown/midtown area, provide more convenience and make it attractive, rather than make it easier for people to live farther and farther away from the core. These people tend to complain about congestion and traffic the most, and it is precisely them who choose a lifestyle that leads to these urban issues. And don't complain about high housing price, your 4 member family doesn't necessarily need 2500 sf single detached house to start with, why? Look at Paris again. No one says Canadians are simply entitled to 2X the living space.

We don't like extreme high density like some Asian cities. however, there is plenty of room in Toronto to get reasonable density, as right now even many parts of downtown is not really dense, and anywhere in midtown except close to Yonge st is rather sparse, not so much different from the suburbs. It is frustrating to see the city getting increasing bigger while people live increasingly farther apart, and then infrastructures were built just to cater these people's need, where the money could be put in much better use to make our city more livable. If someone decides he needs big space and chooses to live in Brampton or Richmond Hill, then fine, you have nothing to do with Toronto and Toronto is not responsible for bringing into the city to work.

Toronto is not Paris. It never will be. Get over it.

Yes, we should all live in smaller spaces. I fully agree with the idea. And I do live in a condo. But the reality is that even most condo dwellers in Toronto would never accept the European definition of a flat. Let alone families living in condos, which is common in most of the world, but rare in Canada, because developers don't build very many family friendly condos.

Aside from all that, we have what we have. You keep banging on this drum without offering any ideas on how to get to there from here. Toronto is already one of the world's hotspots for condo development. So its already densifying. Property prices are prompting a shift to more dense living anyway. What more can be done? Most of the 416 is already built-out. Nobody is building whole subdivisions anywhere in the 416. So what's your argument here? That we should screw over outer 416 residents anyway? All just because they don't have the three quarters of a million tha it would take to buy a decent family sized condo in the core?

It's quite easy to say people should accept smaller spaces and denser living. Implementing such a solution is not easy.

I find these arguments particularly ridiculous given that a 416 resident living in the city proper is actually worse off than the 905 resident who lives in suburbia proper. You can get from Mississauga to downtown Toronto in half the time from Scarborough to downtown because of GO. But yet you want to fuck over the Scarborough resident who lives and pays taxes in the 416? Nice.
 
LRT can be a precursor to eventual subway expansion. It's why the Yonge Subway, and to a slightly lesser exent, the B-D subway have such significant ridership, they replaced heavily used streetcar lines that reaches capacity. Of course there is the argument the City should have kept the Yonge and Bloor cars..

Brampton and Mississauga's LRT plan is exactly what the suburbs need. Many suburban arterials are wide enough to accommodate surface rapid transit, speed will be comparable to underground transit, and will replace hundreds of buses currently running on Hurontario.

There's a huge difference between Hurontario or Highway 7 and Sheppard or Finch...in its built form and in context.
 
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I have no problem with the G or any crosstown route for that matter. I get the concept of connecting employment and residential zones outside the core of a city. What I have a problem with is starting two high order rapid transit lines that have the same destination (Scarborough Centre).

That's the ultimate terminus. Nobody says the whole thing has to be built. Personally, I'd be happy if they went east to Agincourt and west to Downsview or Sheppard West.

Sheppard between Yonge and Don Mills had almost 20 years to build up its density. But all I see are condos, not office buildings. Yonge between Sheppard and Finch has high density. But it’s linear development, not nodal. A block east and west is semi-affluent suburbia (i.e people who put driving ahead of transit).

How many offices were there on the northern parts of Yonge 20 years ago? Heck, how many condos were on Yonge north of the core 20 years ago? Do you remember what Yonge and Eglinton was like 20 years ago? What about Yonge and Sheppard or Yonge and Finch?

And if you go a block west or east of Yonge, you'll find quite a lot of affluent suburbia too, with the exception of Sheppard, which is getting condos because of the .... Sheppard subway.
 
Sheppard between Yonge and Don Mills had almost 20 years to build up its density. But all I see are condos, not office buildings. Yonge between Sheppard and Finch has high density. But it’s linear development, not nodal. A block east and west is semi-affluent suburbia (i.e people who put driving ahead of transit).

I am with you again. Many boast about the success of North York downtown, the truth is, North York doesn't have a downtown to speak of. Everything circles around Yonge St. 10 minutes walk away Yonge, there is close to no retail business and the area is all suburban again, not so different from Scarbrough. It is not only in North York, but around Eglington, St Clair, Rosedale etc too. Everything is linear developed. All commercial activities wrap closely around Yonge st. A little bit farther way, it is the suburbs.

This is why I am aguing for subways in inner 416 area instead of extending outwards, because people and business follow the subways. If you keep extending the Yonge line, the city grows along Yonge and becomes a one street linear city, which is ridiculous.
 
Anyone arguing for expansion in the suburbs right now must be blinded by their living there. Only someone who is totally biased and self-centered would suggest that the Sheppard line deserves any kind of priority - much less this absolute absurdity of extending the subways further and further north. GO trains can take care of that, they are much more efficient means of transporting people that distance, objectively.

Finch should be the last station on Yonge for the foreseeable future, while I support an extension to York University due to its prominence as a destination. At rush hour people living south of Sheppard right now can hardly get on the subway because of the entitled suburbanites who have crowded the subways.

Frankly we could use a subway extension to mississauga more than markham.

Am i the only one that just saw you contradict yourself within your same post?

"Those entitled suburbanites taking out subway seats...grr" - "We could use a subway extension to mississauga"
 
All this argument comes from the fact that Metrolinx is a weak player. Give Metrolinx both GO and the TTC. Then you'll see some magic happen. The reason outer 416 residents want subways is because of speed. What they need is really more GO service and full service and fare integration with the TTC. None of this will happen while the City handles the TTC and Metrolinx handles GO.
 
Am i the only one that just saw you contradict yourself within your same post?

"Those entitled suburbanites taking out subway seats...grr" - "We could use a subway extension to mississauga"

Not to mention the fact that there's still tens of thousands of 416 riders who live north of Finch station. How many come in on Steeles' buses?
 
A downtown relief line on Queen makes most sense. The traffic on Queen W is insane. It will serve the Queen W shoppers, the beaches, growing residents of Parkdale and Liberty Village, among other up-and-coming neighbourhoods.

A subway that serves the Beaches isn't really a DRL.
 
All this argument comes from the fact that Metrolinx is a weak player. Give Metrolinx both GO and the TTC. Then you'll see some magic happen. The reason outer 416 residents want subways is because of speed. What they need is really more GO service and full service and fare integration with the TTC. None of this will happen while the City handles the TTC and Metrolinx handles GO.

From what I've seen, GO handles Metrolinx.

Far more of GOs original proposals on how to handle GO transit are going forward than anything Metrolinx put out there.
 

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