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TTC: Sheppard Subway Expansion (Speculative)

maybe scarborough should consider moving its office buildings from around stc to vic park.

Err. What? Has anyone ever suggested that Mississauga move Square One or that North York move NYCC (years ago before Yonge developed)?

This is nonsense. The remarkable thing about STC is that it has grown tremendously in the last ten years without adequate transit support. That means it does not need a Sheppard subway. But it would make it a lot easier for most residents and workers in that area.

In any event, what's always been really needed is an extension of the Bloor-Danforth line over the Sheppard subway line. The Eglinton subway/LRT is a reasonable substitute though.

thats never going to happen. but then again neither is a full sheppard subway.

You don't need a full extension to get the benefit. Extending to VP would do a lot for Sheppard. Extending to Agincourt would done a ton more. Extending West would also do a ton.

the real problem i see is that unless yonge and sheppard all of a sudden sees a huge growth in office space, when the drl is eventually built there will be less and less reason to use the sheppard line to go east and west. everyone will be heading where the jobs are, downtown! if yonge and sheppard actually saw growth on the other hand we might see more people using the line to get there. im scared as soon as a drl hits sheppard the numbers will drop down to bus levels. thats my main objection about extending it.

It's going to be a very long time till the DRL hits Sheppard. I'd put money that Sheppard will reach STC before that happens! And if the provincial government's strategy pans out, there should be more jobs at NYCC and STC. Actually, even without that push for government, it may happen anyway. Just look at commercial rents downtown.
 
You do have to admit though Keithz, STC is in a less than ideal spot. Ideally, It should have been between Kennedy and Midland, on the south side of the 401. That way it would have been straddling the Stouffville line perfectly.
 
maybe scarborough should consider moving its office buildings from around stc to vic park. thats never going to happen. but then again neither is a full sheppard subway. the real problem i see is that unless yonge and sheppard all of a sudden sees a huge growth in office space, when the drl is eventually built there will be less and less reason to use the sheppard line to go east and west. everyone will be heading where the jobs are, downtown! if yonge and sheppard actually saw growthin the other hand we might see more people using the line to get there. im scared as soon as a drl hits sheppard the numbers will drop down to bus levels. thats my main objection about extending it.

But people who do not live around downtown also need fast transportation. Lots of people live up there, so it's not fair to have them go so far south. The other thing is that by not expanding sheppard, one is in effect kinda screwing people who live up there. They want their conditions to improve too... and come on, the gap between downsview and the sheppard line is just mind boggling when one looks at the map...



although i agree and to make the system have less transfers i agree with the extension the reality is we need to plan based on numbers not on what looks good on a map. my first preference would have been a crosstown sheppard lrt with the sheppard subway being converted.

This is a rude joke in my opinion.

Sheppard has numbers that are too high for LRT right now. As for low numbers - there is one simple thing... changing the land use. Wherever a subway line goes, development follows...
 
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Not meaning to sound totally rude, but do you actually use the term "greektown" often? The greeks don't even call it that, it's "the Danforth" plain & simple.
 
Except on Danforth from Broadview to Vic Park.

In that case it was City land use policy that was actively discouraging denser development. There are two sides to the densification around subway lines: you need the subway line, and you need the land use policies in order to enable the densification.
 
Except on Danforth from Broadview to Vic Park.
That's slowly changing. There's that new 12-story condo that's proposed for the SW of Woodbine and Danforth - http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/showth...orth-Woodbine-Tre-Memovia-JFC-12s-TACT-Design) - though now that one of the developers has been received a 12-year jail sentence for manslaughter relating to the arson used to demolish the previous building, it may be a while before anything happens.

Still, I expect that we will see significant increasing densification along Danforth from Broadview to Main in the next few years.
 
You do have to admit though Keithz, STC is in a less than ideal spot. Ideally, It should have been between Kennedy and Midland, on the south side of the 401. That way it would have been straddling the Stouffville line perfectly.

Today yes. But keep in mind that these were independent boroughs not all that long ago. STC's location makes a lotof sense if you look at Scarborough by itself.

This is not an adequate reason to screw the whole borough over, however, with respect to transit developments. And I would suggest that the election of Rob Ford is simply a reflection of the backlash to this mentality. In the 90s, you had this "scary" image of Scarberia. You had a perpetual delay on the extension of both the Bloor-Danforth subway and the SRT. Now you have this image of Scarborough as being full of ignorant car-loving near-hillbillies. It's nonsense. The only reason Rob Ford did so well is not because his anti-LRT views resonated, it's because deep down people want speed. And that's what Rob Ford promised them.

The inner suburbs choose the car because that's the most sensible choice to take when faced with commutes that could hit up to 2 hours in one direction. This is why there's so much support for subways and a distaste for light rail. Give them speed and they'll choose transit every tiime. The question we should be asking ourselves is the same one a voter asks when they hit the polling station. "What will this do for me? Will this get me to work faster? How much faster?" Etc. You want support for your transit plan? It better be built around very strong answers to these kind of questions.

Also, if you're a Scarborough resident, it gets very hard to swallow the whole, "We don't have money for subways line." when the various levels of government seem to find money for subways to Vaughan and Richmond Hill (in due course). These folks are 416 ratepayers. That's not a line that's going to go down easily when they see 905 residents being prioritized over them. Mark my words, they'll also be grumbling a ton when the DRL comes along and its pricetag is announced.

Right or wrong, this is how the average person thinks. I hear this kind of attitude regularly from friends and family all over the 'hood. I honestly feel that sometimes, the crowd on this forum forgets what it's like to not be a transit geek excited to see a new subway train. Real people have real problems. And they don't have time for transitfan solutions.

Here's my prediction. Rob Ford may (probably will) get the boot at the next election. But the next guy to promise those residents speed will get the nod. And this will keep happening until something is done to address the mobility problems of the inner boroughs.

None of this is to say that I think the Sheppard subway, in part or in full, is the answer to all of Scarborough problems. But I am perturbed by lack of a sense of reality I see in these discussions sometimes.
 
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Not meaning to sound totally rude, but do you actually use the term "greektown" often? The greeks don't even call it that, it's "the Danforth" plain & simple.
No, I don't call it that typically, but I was referring specifically to the section between Broadview and Pape, as opposed to the poster who was talking about out to Victoria Park (which is still part of Danforth, but isn't "the Danforth"). "Greektown" is more geographically specific.
 
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Sheppard has numbers that are too high for LRT right now. As for low numbers - there is one simple thing... changing the land use. Wherever a subway line goes, development follows...

Sheppard does not have ridership too high for LRT. Far from it. However, it does have ridership way, way too low for HRT subway.
 
Sheppard has numbers that are too high for LRT right now ...
Sheppard does not have ridership too high for LRT. Far from it. However, it does have ridership way, way too low for HRT subway.
Too high? The LRT numbers are almost too LOW for LRT! The EA put the 2031 maximum demand at only 3,000 passengers per hour in the peak direction for LRT, increasing only to 5,000 for subway (other studies put that to around 7,000 if it goes to Scarborough Centre). And presumably that point is between Don Mills Road and Consumers Drive. Subways would require 10,000 passengers per hour.

The study concluded that Sheppard East was in the correct range for BRT in partially exclusive right-of-way (less than 6,000-8,000), however it only discarded that option because the road-width wasn't wide enough to allow for the extra width that is necessary for BRT.

Personally, I've always believed the correct answer it to extend Sheppard East to Victoria Park (to get it past the 404 bottleneck - and because much of the demand seems to come from there), and then build something (BRT or LRT) from there, making sure it didn't preclude future subway expansion.
 

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