TTC: Sheppard Subway Expansion (Speculative)

[gweed123]

I'm convinced that any eastern extension that doesn't take the line to a logical terminus (probably STC) would be wasteful. Don Mills is already well-equipped as a terminal station. Why pick up and move that a few kilometres east?

Either do it all in one phase or not at all.

I would tend to disagree with this. The biggest choke point on the current Sheppard bus route is from about Consumers to Don Mills. Extending the subway to past the choke point would help speed up the route. Plus, east of Victoria Park is wide enough that queue jump and/or curbside lanes in strategic locations can improve the bus flow even more.

Extending it to Victoria Park also gives subway access to the Consumers business park.

As far as the DRL goes, the big test will be to see if this new council endorses the direction of the previous council, which was essentially that Metrolinx must prioritize construction of the DRL ahead of any extension of the Yonge subway line.

The amendment that set that direction was moved by Michael Thompson, who plays well with the mayor, and endorsed by a weird mish-mash of right/left councillors. Ford supported it, which is promising. Stintz did not.

I don't think we'll have to wait too long to see if they pass this test or not. The DTRTES should be done and before council by the end of the year for sure (hopefully by the end of this summer, but that's looking more and more unlikely). A firm study with some tangible conclusions will give a very good indication of what direction they want to take.

 

[Dan416]

I would tend to disagree with this. The biggest choke point on the current Sheppard bus route is from about Consumers to Don Mills. Extending the subway to past the choke point would help speed up the route. Plus, east of Victoria Park is wide enough that queue jump and/or curbside lanes in strategic locations can improve the bus flow even more.

Extending it to Victoria Park also gives subway access to the Consumers business park.



I don't think we'll have to wait too long to see if they pass this test or not. The DTRTES should be done and before council by the end of the year for sure (hopefully by the end of this summer, but that's looking more and more unlikely). A firm study with some tangible conclusions will give a very good indication of what direction they want to take.

It would be nice to have a real, proposed route for the DRL too.

 

[nfitz]

Not the sharpest knife in the drawer, are you?

Continuing your theme of being 100% wrong I see ...

The only problem here is that you screwed up and forgot that the current deficit is much lower than those during the Mulroney era, and made fun of anyone who suggested otherwise ... and then when you realized you had made an error you start back-pedalling, and attacking those who have pointed out your error, rather than simply admitting you were wrong.

You were extremely and unnecessarily rude. A normal person under these circumstances would simply apologise and move on. You apologise, but then you start making more unnecessary and rude comments. Stop it, and start sticking to the topic of the debate.

Perhaps you could do so, by telling us why you think only Willowdale would be constructed?

 

[leopetr]

I'm convinced that any eastern extension that doesn't take the line to a logical terminus (probably STC) would be wasteful. Don Mills is already well-equipped as a terminal station. Why pick up and move that a few kilometres east?

Back when I rode the 190 regularly in 2004-2006, the worst part of the route was the bridge over the 404. It's a narrow bottleneck that affects all of the bus routes on Sheppard. Extending the subway would eliminate the bottleneck.

Also, per Jane Jacobs, highways are extremely pedestrian- and city-hostile. They are rips in the fabric of the city that create artificial, impermeable borders between areas. Bringing the subway across to the other side would make the 404 a less disruptive barrier.

 

[GenerationW]

As far as the DRL goes, the big test will be to see if this new council endorses the direction of the previous council, which was essentially that Metrolinx must prioritize construction of the DRL ahead of any extension of the Yonge subway line.

Oh please, what direction did the previous council establish? Commissioning a study of downtown transit is hardly on a par with sending Metrolinx an ultimatum. They just passed the buck.

 

[nfitz]

Oh please, what direction did the previous council establish? Commissioning a study of downtown transit is hardly on a par with sending Metrolinx an ultimatum. They just passed the buck.

That's hardly what they did though.

The motion that City Council passed - over 2 years ago - was quite clear. and included "TTC will be responsible for project management and delivery of the Yonge Subway Extension Project ... Metrolinx be requested to prioritize the Downtown Relief Line in advance of the Yonge North Extension in order to accommodate capacity issues resulting from the extension of the Yonge Subway.".

he motion on this was far more definitive than the motion on studying the Downtown Rapid Transit Line which merely referred to the TTC for consideration that they "be requested to commence the proper studies, including Environmental Assessments as required, to evaluate the merits of the Downtown Rapid Transit Line and Don Mills LRT".

 

[Rainforest]

I'm convinced that any eastern extension that doesn't take the line to a logical terminus (probably STC) would be wasteful. Don Mills is already well-equipped as a terminal station. Why pick up and move that a few kilometres east?

Either do it all in one phase or not at all.

I have a feeling that the cost-benefit ratio for a short eastern expension will be better than for an extension that goes all the way to STC.

True, a shorter extension tends to cost more per km, as the fixed costs like preparing the launch site, assembling the TBMs, and building the bus terminal are divided by a smaller number of km.

But if we look at the expected usage patterns for Sheppard East, it is likely that the main pattern is travelling from places in the north-east towards Yonge. (I don't think a lot of people will take a bus from the north to Sheppard and then take subway to STC.) If so, then the ridership counts will get lower and lower as you are getting further from Yonge.

In addition, a short extension can probably operate off the existing Davisville Yard, whereas an extension to STC (but without the western link) might require a new yard, which a considerable expense.

A short extension to Vic Park will be useful to bypass the 404 gridlock and connect the subway to the busy Vic Park bus route, as gweed and leopetr already mentioned.

However, I would consider going one concession further - to Warden. Advantages:

1) Start-up costs divided by 3.5 km rather than 2 km.

2) New bus terminal at Warden might be cheaper than at Vic Park. In that scheme, Vic Park can do without a bus terminal altogether to reduce the costs; there would be an on-street connection like at Sheppard / Bayview.

3) Easier to connect the subway to the Finch / Warden cluster, and then to the Enterprise cluster in Markham, by an express bus or BRT.

 

[GenerationW]

That's hardly what they did though.

The motion that City Council passed - over 2 years ago - was quite clear. and included "TTC will be responsible for project management and delivery of the Yonge Subway Extension Project ... Metrolinx be requested to prioritize the Downtown Relief Line in advance of the Yonge North Extension in order to accommodate capacity issues resulting from the extension of the Yonge Subway.".

he motion on this was far more definitive than the motion on studying the Downtown Rapid Transit Line which merely referred to the TTC for consideration that they "be requested to commence the proper studies, including Environmental Assessments as required, to evaluate the merits of the Downtown Rapid Transit Line and Don Mills LRT".

That's all wonderful, but that ultimatum to Metrolinx was only concocted in reaction to the apparent traction York region was getting with Yonge at the time. Claiming the DRL should move up in priority while also commissioning a study to determine if a DRL is even merited revealed this ultimatum to be simply a delaying tactic. And passing the buck worked, so I give them credit for that, but the former council cared as little for the DRL as the current council does (so far).

 

[nfitz]

Claiming the DRL should move up in priority while also commissioning a study to determine if a DRL is even merited revealed this ultimatum to be simply a delaying tactic. And passing the buck worked, so I give them credit for that, but the former council cared as little for the DRL as the current council does (so far).

Neither council may have cared little for the DRT, however the previous council cared little about the Yonge extension either ... but did make it clear that if Yonge is built, that it would necessitate the DRT. The current council has yet to give any indication of it's position on either issue.

 

[GenerationW]

Neither council may have cared little for the DRT

Much, not little.

When York Region eventually secures funding for Yonge while Toronto is sleeping, I'm sure the current (or next) council will be motivated into action out of fear just like the previous council. It'll be too late by then, but at least they'll act!

 

[gweed123]

Neither council may have cared little for the DRT, however the previous council cared little about the Yonge extension either ... but did make it clear that if Yonge is built, that it would necessitate the DRT. The current council has yet to give any indication of it's position on either issue.

One can only hope that when Ford's pipe dream of a Sheppard subway comes crashing down, he'll try to save face by building the DRL (with his rationale being "hey, at least I got SOME subways built, right??"). But this isn't very likely, because I'm sure in his mind the DRL is a subway for downtown elitest lefty pinkos, who are probably all riding bikes to work anyway.

 

[k10ery]

That's hardly what they did though.

The motion that City Council passed - over 2 years ago - was quite clear. and included "TTC will be responsible for project management and delivery of the Yonge Subway Extension Project ... Metrolinx be requested to prioritize the Downtown Relief Line in advance of the Yonge North Extension in order to accommodate capacity issues resulting from the extension of the Yonge Subway.".

Nonbinding motions by departed politicians carry little weight. The DRL has been going nowhere because TTC isn't interested. A new rider who takes a train from Finch or Vaughan or RHC to Union brings TTC an operating profit. An existing rider who takes a DRL instead of BD downtown would just lose money even if the province paid all the capital cost. Because we force such high cost recovery on TTC they have little incentive to worry about crowding downtown.

 

[gweed123]

Nonbinding motions by departed politicians carry little weight. The DRL has been going nowhere because TTC isn't interested. A new rider who takes a train from Finch or Vaughan or RHC to Union brings TTC an operating profit. An existing rider who takes a DRL instead of BD downtown would just lose money even if the province paid all the capital cost. Because we force such high cost recovery on TTC they have little incentive to worry about crowding downtown.

I don't think that's the reason. Sure, if the DRL is built, that's 17,500 pphpd who aren't using YUS to get downtown. But that also means there's 17,500 spaces that have just opened up on YUS. Compare that to the ~9,000 pphpd that will be gained from implementing just ATC and the TRs. That's the potential for 8,500 more riders using the system with the addition of the DRL compared to just expanding the capacity of the Yonge line. I'd say that's a pretty decent incentive.

The reason the DRL hasn't gotten much support is the suburban-dominated council doesn't see the value in increasing subway capacity heading into downtown. For them, they're more concerned about expanding subway service in the suburbs (usually into their own wards). They neglect the fundamental principle that a system cannot truly expand it's effectiveness upstream if the existing system downstream doesn't have the capacity to handle the increased volumes as a result of the addition upstream. To them, the DRL is the subway for downtown, when in reality the DRL would actually benefit the inner suburban commuters more than it would the downtown commuters.

 

[accura407]

Also, per Jane Jacobs, highways are extremely pedestrian- and city-hostile. They are rips in the fabric of the city that create artificial, impermeable borders between areas. Bringing the subway across to the other side would make the 404 a less disruptive barrier.

Yes an 8 Lane freeway that was built through a planned suburban community and demolished zero homes destroyed the fabric of the city but a 4+ Track Train Corridor (Eg. Lakeshore/Georgetown Lines) that rips right through formerly established neighbourhoods (and makes a lot of noise) was amazing...cuz it doesn't serve the car...

This extreme ideological mindset is whats exactly wrong with this city...

 

[GraphicMatt]

GenerationW is mostly right. The previous council did little to move forward on the DRL, with Miller and Giambrone especially suffering some tunnel vision, unable to think beyond the scope of Transit City. (Never mind that, as planned, Transit City would have overwhelmed the Yonge line even more.) The request that Metrolinx prioritize the DRL ahead of a Yonge Street extension was, however, at least a public acknowledgement that we will need this piece of infrastructure.

The TTC, for their part, seems overly optimistic that the new subway cars and installation of ATO will vastly increase capacity on Yonge, to the point where we won't need the DRL for quite some time.

The primary thing the DRL lacks is a political champion at the provincial or federal level.