TTC: Sheppard Subway Expansion (Speculative)

[Rainforest]

If you are talking about crosstown trips (and crosstown within the city of Toronto boundaries by itself is pretty meaningless), even subways are way too slow. You really need GO like regional rail.

AoD

In this corridor, Sheppard / Finch, there are no E-W rail lines.

It looks like for the really long trips, riders will have to use either the CP North Toronto rail or the 407 Transitway; and then take local feeder routes to reach their destinations.

 

[gweed123]

An LRT Crosstown in the north of the city cannot be effective, since the city is very wide in the north and a trip on LRT will take too much time. The estimated trip time on the proposed Finch / Sheppard LRT (that incorporates the existing Sheppard subway tunnel) from Meadowvale to Humber College will be 1 h 40 min one way.

We do not have money for a fast crosstown route in the north. Then, it is better to focus on the realistic travel patterns, and optimize connections from the east and west to the center of North York around Yonge, and the two N-S subway lines (Yonge and Spadina).

IMO, the best configuration is:
- Sheppard subway from Downsview to Agincourt GO
- Sheppard LRT from Agincourt GO to the Zoo
- Finch LRT from Humber College to Yonge, with possible further extensions to the airport and to the east of Yonge

If there is no funds for the eastward extension of Sheppard subway, then just start Sheppard LRT at Don Mills.

Between Yonge and Downsview, the saving from using LRT is trivial, and will not offset the cost of converting the existing subway. If there are money for the conversion of the subway, it is better to use them to extend the subway to Downsview. Of course, this should not be treated as the highest priority project; there are more pressing needs elsewhere in the system.

An Uptown Crosstown LRT would still serve all of those trip patterns. Personally, what I'd like to see is the combined Finch-Sheppard LRT, as well as an Express BRT in the Finch Hydro corridor. That would be the only real way to get an 'express' northern crosstown route.

For those who say that LRT and BRT within such close proximity to each other along Finch West isn't warranted, I'd point to the fact that York Region is building the Highway 7 Rapidway and the Highway 407 Transitway paralleling each other, and in some cases less than 100m apart. They each will have their clearly defined roles, and they will both be useful. I believe that the same principle can be applied on Finch.

 

[BMO]

The people of the grade separated part will love it.

But you people don't think past Don Mills. What happens when a truck or a buses hit an LRT at an intersection?

-The at grade part of the line will be shut down.
-Those people will have to wait for shuttle buses and they don't show up for a long time...imagine in the middle of a storm.
-the tunnel part will continue to have trains because they will short turn at Don Mills.

When that happens, people from Scarborough won't share your opinion. The grade separated part of the line conveniently stop at their doorsteps. They are being told that there was no money but here they are paying the same taxes than the rest of the city and on top of that, they have to pay an extra 500-800$ a year to improve transit...

You just created a 2 tier system on the same line. Wow...

Elevating the eastern part of the line is fair.

Exactly. All these rich Yonge & Eglinton people were all up in arms because it was going to cost them more money to put a fully grade separated LRT out to STC, but now that it's half at grade and half fully grade separated it's ok. You know why? Because people who live at Yonge & Eglinton seldom go to STC or anywhere outside of their inner urban cocoon. It's like a new form of nimbyism, except it's more like Not in your backyard. You use LRT for short to medium trips. As it's been stated multiple times, People in Scarborough aren't taking the LRT to go one or two stops, their taking it for long distance trips. Gosh this whole debate always gets to me. You don't need a subway per se to address this, but at least an LRT option that isn't stoping at Stop Lights would be better.

 

[BurlOak]

An LRT Crosstown in the north of the city cannot be effective, since the city is very wide in the north and a trip on LRT will take too much time. The estimated trip time on the proposed Finch / Sheppard LRT (that incorporates the existing Sheppard subway tunnel) from Meadowvale to Humber College will be 1 h 40 min one way.

We do not have money for a fast crosstown route in the north. Then, it is better to focus on the realistic travel patterns, and optimize connections from the east and west to the center of North York around Yonge, and the two N-S subway lines (Yonge and Spadina).

IMO, the best configuration is:
- Sheppard subway from Downsview to Agincourt GO

If the B-D subway goes to McCowan and Shepard, that would probably make more sense. If the SRT is LRT and crosses east of Markham road, I would agree the Agincourt GO is better. This assumes that Agincourt GO will have frequent all-day service downtown.

- Sheppard LRT from Agincourt GO to the Zoo

or maybe just articulated buses.

- Finch LRT from Humber College to Yonge, with possible further extensions to the airport and to the east of Yonge

Maybe only to Finch West

If there is no funds for the eastward extension of Sheppard subway, then just start Sheppard LRT at Don Mills.

I would say we use Articulated buses until the money becomes available.

Between Yonge and Downsview, the saving from using LRT is trivial, and will not offset the cost of converting the existing subway. If there are money for the conversion of the subway, it is better to use them to extend the subway to Downsview. Of course, this should not be treated as the highest priority project; there are more pressing needs elsewhere in the system.

If Sheppard could be interlined with the Spadina line then essentially the Steeles West, Finch West, Sheppard West, and Wilson lines (bus or LRT) could all be connected with one transfer to the Sheppard Subway.

More info on interlined option

 

[Rainforest]

BurlOak: I either agree or do-not-object-to to the majority of your points, with two exceptions:

1) I would much prefer to take Finch West LRT to Yonge rather than just to Keele. First of all, there are many trip generators on Finch between Dufferin and Bathurst. If the LRT misses them, its potential will be unnecessarily curbed. Secondly, many people take the Finch route from the northern Etobicoke to Yonge. It is not a good idea to make them transfer to bus at Keele.

2) Interlining Sheppard subway with the Spadina extension would be a good idea if provisions for the connection were built into the Spadina extension design. Afterwards, it might be difficult / costly to add such connection.

 

[Rainforest]

An Uptown Crosstown LRT would still serve all of those trip patterns. Personally, what I'd like to see is the combined Finch-Sheppard LRT, as well as an Express BRT in the Finch Hydro corridor. That would be the only real way to get an 'express' northern crosstown route.

For those who say that LRT and BRT within such close proximity to each other along Finch West isn't warranted, I'd point to the fact that York Region is building the Highway 7 Rapidway and the Highway 407 Transitway paralleling each other, and in some cases less than 100m apart. They each will have their clearly defined roles, and they will both be useful. I believe that the same principle can be applied on Finch.

I am not a big fan of the combined Finch-Sheppard LRT, because any connection option results in some sections of Finch under-served. Connection via the existing Sheppard subway deserts Finch West between Dufferin and Yonge, whereas a connection via Don Mills creates problems for Finch east of Don Mills.

As of the express BRT in the Finch hydro corridor, it might be a good idea if the demand can be predicted. However, I would not be surprised if the potential demand is largely diverted to the 407 Transitway when it opens. The 407 buses will be able to run at 100 - 110 kph between the stops, while the Finch HC buses will be limited to 60 - 70 kph since the route runs pretty close to residential houses in many places. On long trips, the speed of the trunk route might offset the extra time needed to reach the trunk.

 

[Rainforest]

Exactly. All these rich Yonge & Eglinton people were all up in arms because it was going to cost them more money to put a fully grade separated LRT out to STC, but now that it's half at grade and half fully grade separated it's ok. You know why? Because people who live at Yonge & Eglinton seldom go to STC or anywhere outside of their inner urban cocoon. It's like a new form of nimbyism, except it's more like Not in your backyard. You use LRT for short to medium trips. As it's been stated multiple times, People in Scarborough aren't taking the LRT to go one or two stops, their taking it for long distance trips. Gosh this whole debate always gets to me. You don't need a subway per se to address this, but at least an LRT option that isn't stoping at Stop Lights would be better.

Can't fully buy into this argument.

First of all, residents of Scarborough and other outer areas may be paying same taxes; but providing same quality of transit service to them costs more since longer trips cost more. One can and should argue for some equalization built into the fares and into the transit expansion plans. However, arguing that anything less than equal service level is unfair takes it too far.

If we go that route, we should as well argue against any short-turn branches of bus routes, even if the load levels justify that; because short-turning results in the less frequent service at the outer end of the line.

Secondly, fully grade-separate lines are not immune to delays and service interruptions. Everybody who rides Yonge or Spadina subway during the evening rush is well aware of that. There is really no reason to make such a bug deal out of the presence of some in-median sections in an LRT route, as long as the overall route serves its purpose in terms of speed and capacity.

And finally, LRT that is not stopping at stop lights in many cases will cost as much as a subway, while having less capacity.

 

[gweed123]

I am not a big fan of the combined Finch-Sheppard LRT, because any connection option results in some sections of Finch under-served. Connection via the existing Sheppard subway deserts Finch West between Dufferin and Yonge, whereas a connection via Don Mills creates problems for Finch east of Don Mills.

Why not just extend the Finch East bus route to Finch West Stn? It would then only have a very small overlap with the LRT. Even if every 2nd Finch East bus turns back at Yonge, it would still be a high enough service level to serve Finch West between Yonge and Keele. Remember, a lot of the reason why service levels are so high on that stretch of Finch West now is because of riders from further upstream. If the Uptown LRT is built, those upstream riders would be diverted.

As of the express BRT in the Finch hydro corridor, it might be a good idea if the demand can be predicted. However, I would not be surprised if the potential demand is largely diverted to the 407 Transitway when it opens. The 407 buses will be able to run at 100 - 110 kph between the stops, while the Finch HC buses will be limited to 60 - 70 kph since the route runs pretty close to residential houses in many places. On long trips, the speed of the trunk route might offset the extra time needed to reach the trunk.

If I had it my way, I would actually have the Express BRT built ahead of the FWLRT. That way the City could more accurately judge if LRT is actually needed on Finch, or if the express BRT diverts enough riders off that dedicated shoulder lanes and articulated buses could do the trick.

I can see it being particularly useful for buses from eastern Scarborough and western Etobicoke. Run local in a particular neighbourhood, and then express to either Finch or Finch West Stations. The limited speed thing, I don't know if that's really an issue. There's plenty of areas along Ottawa's Transitway that are adjacent to residential areas, and it doesn't seem to slow the buses down very much.

 

[BurlOak]

BurlOak: I either agree or do-not-object-to to the majority of your points, with two exceptions:

1) I would much prefer to take Finch West LRT to Yonge rather than just to Keele. First of all, there are many trip generators on Finch between Dufferin and Bathurst. If the LRT misses them, its potential will be unnecessarily curbed. Secondly, many people take the Finch route from the northern Etobicoke to Yonge. It is not a good idea to make them transfer to bus at Keele.

2) Interlining Sheppard subway with the Spadina extension would be a good idea if provisions for the connection were built into the Spadina extension design. Afterwards, it might be difficult / costly to add such connection.

1) I think the Sheppard West is a higher priority than FWLRT. Maybe what Gweed suggest - having the Finch East go to Keele, would work.

2) My Sheppard/Spadina interlining plan does not have a transfer station at Downview (the existing one). The Sheppard would go under Allen Road and alternately curve north or south to interline with the Spadina line. There would be not reason for anyone to switch from Sheppard to Spadina since the trains would already do this. The Sheppard station would be somewhat towards Wilson Heights, but it would still use the existing bus area.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Why not just have the sheppard subway going west to revdale blvd and the east mall and morningside in the east. Make a complete line and rezone. Same with the Finch LRT. Build it from Humber to Finch/Morningside.Run the BD subway past these two route to McCowan/Steeles. We have one chance to get this right. The suwbays need to serve all of scarborough, otherwise we move the isolation to brimley(eastern scarborough) rather then the whole borough. Let's do this properly. Going from Fairview to STC solves nothing. BD going to STC and crossing two lines that have of both modes bringing more riders in does for the long term.

 

[Bojaxs]

I wish the Sheppard subway was never built. It's just complicated everything. F*** you Lastman!

I'm starting to think that too many projects are being taken on at the same time. People who don't follow these projects as closely as we do are becoming confused.

Eglinton LRT
Sheppard extension
SRT replacement
Finch LRT

We only get one chance to do these projects. We have to make sure we're looking at them from every angel and understand how they'll effect the city 20, 30, 50 years from now. Everything about these projects needs to be made simple and clear to the general public so people are thinking rationale and not thinking with their emotions.

I feel like Transit city is causing everything to be jumbled up, rushed and politicized.

Solid Snake makes a good point. Trying to convert the Sheppard subway to underground LRT would be political suicide. Which is why I wish the Sheppard subway was never built. Would have been so much easier to build one transfer free, continuous LRT line on Sheppard. Unfortunately we're now going to be stuck with this messed up, jumbled, transfer ridden, half subway / half LRT line on Sheppard.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Or one can just drive.

 

[Rainforest]

Why not just extend the Finch East bus route to Finch West Stn? It would then only have a very small overlap with the LRT. Even if every 2nd Finch East bus turns back at Yonge, it would still be a high enough service level to serve Finch West between Yonge and Keele. Remember, a lot of the reason why service levels are so high on that stretch of Finch West now is because of riders from further upstream. If the Uptown LRT is built, those upstream riders would be diverted.

This is certainly possible. But, a) transit on that section of Finch West will still run in mixed traffic and remain dependent on congestion, and b) riders who want to get to Finch / Yonge, or continue north on Yonge, will have to either transfer to the bus at Keele, or take an LRT detour south via Dufferin and Shepprd before going back north.

Basically, by diverting the Finch line south to meet Sheppard, you are making life easier for those who want to go across Yonge, but harder to those who just want to reach Yonge. And I am not sure that the first group is larger than the second group.

 

[Rainforest]

2) My Sheppard/Spadina interlining plan does not have a transfer station at Downview (the existing one). The Sheppard would go under Allen Road and alternately curve north or south to interline with the Spadina line. There would be not reason for anyone to switch from Sheppard to Spadina since the trains would already do this. The Sheppard station would be somewhat towards Wilson Heights, but it would still use the existing bus area.

This is nice in principle. But it will be difficult to connect the new tracks to the underground tunnel built for Spadina extension. If they built the Spadina with room for such connections from the onset, then it would be much easier.

 

[BurlOak]

This is nice in principle. But it will be difficult to connect the new tracks to the underground tunnel built for Spadina extension. If they built the Spadina with room for such connections from the onset, then it would be much easier.

One set of those connections would be just north of Wilson Station - at grade no less. The other set of connections would be just west of the new Downsview station. These would be underground, but could be easily excavated with an open cut since there is nothing above that area.