TTC: Sheppard Subway Expansion (Speculative)

[Voltz]

Sheppard has seen a large amount of condominium development along its entire length. Whereas the Scarborough RT passes through low density industrial areas and has no development anywhere other than Scarborough Centre. The Scarborough RT only seems busier because it has a lower capacity than Sheppard. The ridership isn't really that bad for a line that is unfinished, if you look at the ridership of other very short subway lines it is often lower.

The ridership of Sheppard is atrociously bad for a short line that cost a billion dollars.

 

[Electrify]

I really wish the TTC decided to bite the bullet and pay Bombardier to build new trains for the SRT. I suppose it means nothing now that the line is being retrofitted with rolling stock for overhead wire power supplies, but 15-20 years ago it would have been a smart investment.

Anyways, there is no hope for a Sheppard subway extension at this point. I disagree with the option chosen myself, as there were a number of excellent alternatives to provide a transfer free ride to Yonge which were not chosen or considered, including:

- retrofitting the current line to support rolling stock which use overhead wires, so that trains could run through a portal to the surface seamlessly.
- continue using trains which use third rail power, but as the line leaves the portal, elevate it above Sheppard.
- use dual-mode trains which can switch from third rail to overhead wires.

Unfortunately, what's chosen is chosen, and unless you want to see the opening date pushed back another 7 years, we might as well accept it. The best we can hope for is the TTC reviewing the stops along the line, and removing some of the excess local stops to allow the route to operate like a real rapid transit line.

 

[ShonTron]

heck, it will quite literally be the ONLY rail transit line in the GTA that doesn't touch the yonge line, yet alone the only east-west.

Mississauga and Brampton might disagree with that statement. The SRT replacement will most likely remain as a separate line as well.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Hurontario isn't funded yet, and I forgot about the SRT. (Somehow)

 

[andrewpmk]

The ridership of Sheppard is atrociously bad for a short line that cost a billion dollars.

Short subway lines never have very high ridership. Can you think of an example of a very short subway line that has significantly higher ridership than Sheppard? Also I think that the demand is there if the line were extended, look at the severe traffic congestion in the Bayview/Sheppard and Leslie/Sheppard areas caused by the large condominium development there. People are driving instead of taking the subway because the subway has 5 stops, instead of going across a large part of the northern half of the city as originally planned, so it is not much of an alternative to driving on the 401.

 

[Rainforest]

Sheppard has seen a large amount of condominium development along its entire length. Whereas the Scarborough RT passes through low density industrial areas and has no development anywhere other than Scarborough Centre. The Scarborough RT only seems busier because it has a lower capacity than Sheppard. The ridership isn't really that bad for a line that is unfinished, if you look at the ridership of other very short subway lines it is often lower.

Most of Scarborough RT ridership is due to feeder routes. People need to get on Danforth subway, they take a bus to STC and then take RT to subway. Density along the route has very little impact on this ridership.

Sheppard subway has a higher proportion of walk-in riders. But if it was extended, most of new riders would be transferring from feeder routes, not walking in.

 

[Voltz]

Short subway lines never have very high ridership. Can you think of an example of a very short subway line that has significantly higher ridership than Sheppard? Also I think that the demand is there if the line were extended, look at the severe traffic congestion in the Bayview/Sheppard and Leslie/Sheppard areas caused by the large condominium development there. People are driving instead of taking the subway because the subway has 5 stops, instead of going across a large part of the northern half of the city as originally planned, so it is not much of an alternative to driving on the 401.

It still cost a billion dollars, and extending it would several billion more, just because there are explanations for its low ridership doesn't justify building or extending the line given its high cost, if conditions allowed for it to be built significantly cheaper then it would be a different story.

 

[rbt]

It still cost a billion dollars, and extending it would several billion more, just because there are explanations for its low ridership doesn't justify building or extending the line given its high cost, if conditions allowed for it to be built significantly cheaper then it would be a different story.

And 50 years later the G line in New York still has very low ridership.

A long subway line has to actually go someplace useful for a large number of people to ride it and there is zero evidence that cutting across the top of the city is it. Very few people on the 401 have their destination at the north end of Yonge street or SCC and even fewer begin their trip within walking distance of the highway.

 

[EnviroTO]

A long subway line has to actually go someplace useful for a large number of people to ride it and there is zero evidence that cutting across the top of the city is it. Very few people on the 401 have their destination at the north end of Yonge street or SCC and even fewer begin their trip within walking distance of the highway.

A very logical argument I completely agree with, however it seems that this forum may be filled with people who spend their days in Scarborough Centre Mall and live in North York condos/apartments, who live in Scarborough condos/apartments and who work in the 2 or 3 office buildings in North York or go to York U, or who like subways for the fact it makes the TTC subway map look more impressive. Far more people would be living in North York or Scarborough and working downtown or in office parks and industrial parks nowhere near the Sheppard subway. Likely a DRL reaching up to Sheppard would soak up most of the ridership that does already exist on the Sheppard line, but lets try to ignore the pedestrian flows once the Sheppard subway lets them off at Yonge and imagine they want to go where it benefits suburban subway creation dreams.

 

[rbt]

Likely a DRL reaching up to Sheppard would soak up most of the ridership that does already exist on the Sheppard line, but lets try to ignore the pedestrian flows once the Sheppard subway lets them off at Yonge and imagine they want to go where it benefits suburban subway creation dreams.

I would be far more in favour of spending $10B on a DRL which reaches Vic Park and Sheppard than spending $500M on an extension of Sheppard to the same location for exactly the reasons you describe.

 

[andrewpmk]

And 50 years later the G line in New York still has very low ridership.

A long subway line has to actually go someplace useful for a large number of people to ride it and there is zero evidence that cutting across the top of the city is it. Very few people on the 401 have their destination at the north end of Yonge street or SCC and even fewer begin their trip within walking distance of the highway.

The G train carries 125000 riders a day, over double the ridership of the Sheppard subway. This is in spite of underfunding, which means that the G train is less frequent than the Sheppard subway (every 6-10 minutes vs. 5 minutes on Sheppard). Plus it only takes slightly longer to take the F or N/Q/R train through Manhattan to go between Queens and Brooklyn, so this reduces ridership on the G.

 

[rbt]

The G train carries 125000 riders a day, over double the ridership of the Sheppard subway.

Not much higher than a few MTA bus routes (express + local). It's not a very exciting ridership.

 

[andrewpmk]

Not much higher than a few MTA bus routes (express + local). It's not a very exciting ridership.

My point is that since you can take the F, N, Q or R between Long Island City and Downtown Brooklyn which is only slightly slower than the G, this cannibalizes much of the ridership.

In comparison, taking the SRT, BD and YUS between Scarborough and North York is very time consuming.

 

[BurlOak]

I was hoping to get some response on this in the fantasy transit thread but nobody bit. Here is my thought for Sheppard West. I am sure I have seen parts of this before, but I will consolidate it into one plan. Essentially, the Sheppard subway would be interlined with the Spadina line at the (existing) Downsview station, alternating going north and south. Here is the resulting TTC map (excuse the poor graphics).

So we have 4 lines (actually 3, but I gave the short-turn one its own name) operating and the YUS and Spadina lines. At peak, the trains have the following frequencies:

- Yonge-University-Vaughan (yellow) = 4 minutes
- Yonge-University-Downsview (red) = 8 minutes
- Sheppard-University-Yonge (pink) = 8 minutes
- Sheppard-Vaughan (blue) = 8 minutes

Each train would be colour coded so that passenger know which direction there train would go (in addition to the sign on the front of the train) - even the short turn train has a colour coding so that passengers will not complain about being on a train the short-turns.

This means that train frequency would be 2 minutes on the current YUS and south of Downsview every second train would either be a short turn or transferring Sheppard train would ensure space for those further south. The frequency would be 3 trains in 8 minutes (intervals of 2, 2, and 4 minutes) on the new Spadina extension - where one of those trains goes towards Sheppard. The frequency on Sheppard would be 4 minutes, with trains alternating going north and south.

To accomplish this, there would be a Downsview Station on the Sheppard line. The Sheppard line would go under the Spadina line and then curve down to join the Spadina line north of Wilson (with the northbound to eastbound ramp going over the Spadina line) and also the Sheppard line would go north and join the Spadina line south of Sheppard West (the one with the GO hub) (with the westbound to northbound ramp going over the Spadina line and joining in from the north). (I do show the option of the tracks crossing here, but with farther thought, I think it is worth separating the tracks here). There would be one intersection where the westbound to southbound ramp crosses the southbound to eastbound ramp - this would be acceptable since the frequency on these ramps is 8 minutes for each movement.

Here it is graphically (again, not the greatest drawing skills)

This interlining proposal differs from the Lower Bay Wye that was used decades ago since the frequency on all sides of the Wye are not the same. The Sheppard westbound to southbound train could arrive early to Downsview and have a planned wait to ensure that it joins the Spadina line southbound at the correct point in time - since it is maintaining the frequency southbound that is critical.

The curves to make up these ramps are about 350m radius, about the same (or a touch better) as the Spadina curve from Allen to Sheppard West. However, they are less critical since the train frequency on these ramps is not as often so they could be taken at a slower speed - the only important thing is that the trains be on time to head southbound.

There would be next to no transfers between the two Downsview Stations (the Spadina one and the Sheppard one) due to the interlining - so they could be separated by some distance so that the new Downsview Station would not have to be built under the existing station - they would be close enough to share the bus terminal though. (The station is shown at Faywood, although it may not be needed since the Downsvew Station would extend well East of Dufferin). There would be twin tunnels going under Spadina at Sheppard - which would add some complexities - but the remaining ramps would go above the existing Spadina line, plus all the construction would involve simple excavation and is to the west of Allen road (and south of Sheppard) with minimal to no disruption to traffic. Construction does get a bit close to the runway, which may be a problem.

The last thing is that all trains would consist of 8 cars, except for the Sheppard-Vaughan subway (blue) which would consist of 4 cars. For all stations at Bloor and north, the front of the trains would line up with the end of the platform and the last car, plus perhaps one door from the 7th car, would not line up with the platform and would not open. (When on the Sheppard line, the last 4 cars would not line up at the station and would not have doors open). For all stations south of Bloor, the back of the train would line up with the end of the platform and the first car, plus perhaps one door from the 2nd car, would not line up this the station and would not open. Some smart commuters would enter the 7th car north of Bloor and walk-through to the 8th car so they could disembark from the last car south of Bloor. These 8 car trains would have 30% more capacity than the current 6 car trains. (As stations get busier, the platforms on select high-volume stations could be increased so that the full 8 car train would fit - I am thinking Yonge-Bloor and Union where adding some extra platform length is easier than adding a whole new platform)

 

[M II A II R II K]

In order for a Sheppard subway to have been worth it, the development in conjunction with building it should have made Sheppard have almost continuous sidewalk retail along the entire stretch of the line which would of course insist on having enough residential population by it as well. Not have the street continue to be an unwalkable suburban arterial.

South of Sheppard could have had highrise condos and many new streets with townhouses and duplexes which could have been sold with the advantage of being close to the subway and the highway at the same time. And perhaps have added a south service road next to the highway to accommodate the highway transfer traffic so Sheppard itself doesn't have to become too congested as a result.