TTC: Sheppard Subway Expansion (Speculative)

[Solid Snake]

But Fairview to the zoo looks nicer on a map.

Sure but that's "gravy"...Nothing a bus from STC can't handle

 

[EnviroTO]

More people goes to STC from Don Mills than the zoo last time I checked

That is true but the zoo is a single stop on a line. One thing that is for certain is that the ridership numbers on the 190 bus route isn't very impressive while the 85 is packed. Considering the 85 replicates what the LRT would do more closely (more stops and long route to the zoo) and the 190 bus route replicates what the subway would do more closely (express limited stops to STC) it doesn't seem that great that there isn't enough demand to make the service more frequent. In fact they are reducing the service level slightly.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Sure but that's "gravy"...Nothing a bus from STC can't handle

Oh of course. But then the eastern Scarborough councillors will say that does nothing for them.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

That is true but the zoo is a single stop on a line. One thing that is for certain is that the ridership numbers on the 190 bus route isn't very impressive while the 85 is packed. Considering the 85 replicates what the LRT would do more closely (more stops and long route to the zoo) and the 190 bus route replicates what the subway would do more closely (express limited stops to STC) it doesn't seem that great that there isn't enough demand to make the service more frequent. In fact they are reducing the service level slightly.

Great Point. The 190 is only full during certain times of the week.

 

[accura407]

I have an idea...

Why not run the Sheppard Subway underground until Birchmount then go diagonally south-east towards Kennedy at which it would emerge from a portal and become an elevated line around the CP Rail tracks.

Then the line would have a stop near the new Condo's by Kennedy & 401, then cross the 401 and use the current SRT right of way all the way to STC (If the elevated has the strength to carry a subway).

The current SRT would be dismantled and instead the Bloor-Danforth line can be extended to STC via the Danforth/McCowan corridor, which would also increase ridership tremendously.

Then maybe in the future the line could continue elevated and follow the SRT extension corridor to Malvern Town Centre.

The extra space on the SRT corridor from Kennedy to Ellesmere could be used for extra tracks on the GO Line.

Surely such a project would make the Sheppard subway extension a lot cheaper (because it is entirely elevated after Birchmount)

I know it won't happen but it's a thought...

 

[nfitz]

More people goes to STC from Don Mills than the zoo last time I checked

Which is why they aren't planning to go to the zoo (despite the endless requests from a couple of councillors to extend the route), and also why you'll be able to change from the SRT to the SELRT if you want, to travel from STC to Don Mills.

 

[Paleo]

That is true but the zoo is a single stop on a line. One thing that is for certain is that the ridership numbers on the 190 bus route isn't very impressive while the 85 is packed. Considering the 85 replicates what the LRT would do more closely (more stops and long route to the zoo) and the 190 bus route replicates what the subway would do more closely (express limited stops to STC) it doesn't seem that great that there isn't enough demand to make the service more frequent. In fact they are reducing the service level slightly.

Before the stub on Sheppard opened, there were many times when I was the lone passenger on the 85G STC branch. Maybe everyone always took the first 85 and transferred at McCowan?

 

[Electrify]

It'd be very similar to C-train. Add some pedestrian bridges and we're all set (and maybe add some elevated sections at arterial intersections)

And it would be cheaper and faster too. The bulk of the money would be spent on new rolling stock, rather than retrofitting the line for low floor trains.

 

[Rainforest]

That is true but the zoo is a single stop on a line. One thing that is for certain is that the ridership numbers on the 190 bus route isn't very impressive while the 85 is packed. Considering the 85 replicates what the LRT would do more closely (more stops and long route to the zoo) and the 190 bus route replicates what the subway would do more closely (express limited stops to STC) it doesn't seem that great that there isn't enough demand to make the service more frequent. In fact they are reducing the service level slightly.

Good point, but here is another spin. Buses 85 and 190 run together on Sheppard, until 190 diverts south. So, the subway should ideally go to the Agincourt GO station, and replace both 85 and 190 (there will be a 85 branch for local service between Yonge and Agincourt, but the bulk of riders will use subway).

There is no need to extend the subway from Agincourt to STC. A shortened 190 will connect those two points (or it can be combined with bus 38 to provide a transfer-free ride from the subway to UTSC). A shortened 85 will continue to serve Sheppard, and can be improved by building BRT (it is unlikely that LRT will be warranted for the rest of Sheppard).

In the longer term, an LRT line that connects Agincourt subway / GO, STC, and UTSC can be added. That LRT would run in the middle of Sheppard for a short distance, then turn south on Midland or Brimley, join the SLRT tracks to serve STC, then split off and continue in the middle of Ellesmere to UTSC, and possibly even further as Durham's Hwy 2 LRT.

 

[W. K. Lis]

The Subways and streetcars in Toronto run at 600 VDC. The Transit City Light Rail Lines are to run at 750, but not sure if VDC or VAC.

 

[accura407]

Good point, but here is another spin. Buses 85 and 190 run together on Sheppard, until 190 diverts south. So, the subway should ideally go to the Agincourt GO station, and replace both 85 and 190 (there will be a 85 branch for local service between Yonge and Agincourt, but the bulk of riders will use subway).

There is no need to extend the subway from Agincourt to STC. A shortened 190 will connect those two points (or it can be combined with bus 38 to provide a transfer-free ride from the subway to UTSC). A shortened 85 will continue to serve Sheppard, and can be improved by building BRT (it is unlikely that LRT will be warranted for the rest of Sheppard).

In the longer term, an LRT line that connects Agincourt subway / GO, STC, and UTSC can be added. That LRT would run in the middle of Sheppard for a short distance, then turn south on Midland or Brimley, join the SLRT tracks to serve STC, then split off and continue in the middle of Ellesmere to UTSC, and possibly even further as Durham's Hwy 2 LRT.

The connection from Agincourt to STC is so short and yet best served by subway because the short diagonal distance cannot be replicated with an LRT. Not to mention the traffic impact that the STC will have on the route...

But Yes, subway to Agincourt and then STC. BRT from Agincourt to the Zoo. Focus all development along Sheppard between Don Mills and Agincourt GO.

If anyone further east on sheppard needs rapid transit, they have the access point they need at Progress and Sheppard. All points in between Midland and Progress can be served well with bus service. It is so suburban after McCowan...some of it looks identical to the 905...I never understood why there was a push for LRT till morningside...other than the LRT maintenance facility i guess.

If LRT is decided as the way to go though I would at least say we extend the subway to Victoria Park, make the Bored Tunnels end at Consumers and do a cut and cover up to Victoria Park to make the line come gradually closer to surface. build the simplest transfer point at which stairs (and maybe a street crossing to the subway station for accessible patrons) on street level decend down to the subway...An old example of this can be found formerly at Yonge & Bloor where streetcars transfered to the subway. No Underground connections...Don't cut off the future.

 

[quicksilver]

But you're right, if the SELRT had included a branch to STC, I think it would be getting a lot less criticism. But alas, it doesn't, nor will it likely ever. So in that case, bring on another solution that does.

The plan for the SRT replacement, as passed by council last week, now includes taking the line to Sheppard just east of Markham Rd, creating a connection to STC. For riders going between NYCC and STC, McCowan would have been more direct. However existing right-of-ways and the McCowan car yard moved the nortbound turn further east. At least the connection will be there. There are pictures of how the SELRT and SRT will intersect in pages 11 and 14 of the SRT replacement Environmental Project Report – August 2010 excutive summary.

 

[Rainforest]

The plan for the SRT replacement, as passed by council last week, now includes taking the line to Sheppard just east of Markham Rd, creating a connection to STC. For riders going between NYCC and STC, McCowan would have been more direct. However existing right-of-ways and the McCowan car yard moved the nortbound turn further east. At least the connection will be there. There are pictures of how the SELRT and SRT will intersect in pages 11 and 14 of the SRT replacement Environmental Project Report – August 2010 excutive summary.

Frankly, I don't think such an indirect trip between NYCC and STC, with a transfer as far east as Markham Rd, will be used by anyone. If they choose LRT on Sheppard rather than a subway extension, then they should either build a branch of LRT that goes directly to STC, or retain the direct 190 express bus (perhaps reroute it via Ellesmere, if there is no room for bus left on Sheppard).

 

[quicksilver]

Frankly, I don't think such an indirect trip between NYCC and STC, with a transfer as far east as Markham Rd, will be used by anyone. If they choose LRT on Sheppard rather than a subway extension, then they should either build a branch of LRT that goes directly to STC, or retain the direct 190 express bus (perhaps reroute it via Ellesmere, if there is no room for bus left on Sheppard).

I would have to disagree. As someone who used to live very near Summerhill subway station, I was more likely to take two transfers, at Yonge/Bloor and then St. George, to get to Yorkdale mall than I was to take a bus across or even the St. Clair streetcar as it was then in mixed traffic. I see a similar situation for Scarborough. The important elements are the interchange, and network value, rather than the exact placement of the station.

 

[Rainforest]

The connection from Agincourt to STC is so short and yet best served by subway because the short diagonal distance cannot be replicated with an LRT. Not to mention the traffic impact that the STC will have on the route...

A subway connection from Agincourt to STC will be faster and more convenient, but can cost over a billion, and will be an easy target for critisizm because of low ridership. Most of people travelling from STC do not want to go northwest towards NYCC, but rather southwest towards the downtown or midtown. So, we will see full SRT trains leaving STC towards Kennedy, and high-capacity, but very lightly used, subway trains going north-west. The construction costs will soon be forgotten, but the nearly empty subway trains leaving STC will be a constant eyesore in the public opinion.

Taking into account all factors, I'd rather end the subway at Agincourt (as Sheppard is a common route for many passenger flows), and use any extra funding for other corridors rather than pushing the subway to STC. If buses running to STC need a direct connection to subway, I'd rather extend those routes to Agincourt. Bus 38 can be combined with 190, and GO buses can serve both stops: first STC, then Agincourt Stn.