Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[roch5220]

Even 70K trips a day wouldn't warrant it. A subway will increase the capacity by 7-8 times. The problem though with looking at total day trips vs peak time trips/hour, is that you can't determine what the peak time demand is, but even with 70K, 35K each way, and subways can handle 30K per hour, so with 35K trips each way per day, it kinda looks like HRT is overkill.

In all fairness though, no route in Toronto would warrant subway consideration even if you go by even peak time ridership, but I guess its just a piece of the pie to city building, and trying to affirm the city as an global player.

 

[roch5220]

I think the last 2 alternatives are valid - LRT vs HRT, which I think discussion is healthy. I just hope the planners, when the time comes, choose the more effectively project, taking into consideration opportunity cost of other rapid transit projects that could have been funded in the subway is chosen. If the true options are just, subway or LRT (with no additional transit improvements) than I obviously choose subway.

 

[markayca]

The two non-subway options may be cheaper in the short term but let’s not forget the long term forecast. Sure they may increase carrying capacity by 10% or even double it, but what about 20 or even 50 years from now when the trains will be overflowing with people? Perhaps it would be best to bite the bullet and do the job correctly for once rather than to implement piecemeal solutions to the problems of today, while not looking at the demands of the not too distant future.

 

[rbtaylor]

Even 70K trips a day wouldn't warrant it.

70K trips per day is pretty much the maximum capacity of the LRT proposal.

Is it better to build a $450M LRT that you rip up in 10 years to build the subway option for additional capcity?

The only realistic alternative to the subway (and keep in mind the province really likes the Sheppard / Danforth loop) is multiple parallel LRT tracks of about the same dollar value built over a 15 year schedule. Better distributed service but with more transfers.


Where do I find the details on tonights meeting? The cities and TTC websites don't seem to have anything on it.

 

[GregWTravels]

Just an interestingly little bit of information for the discussion. The most used route in the east end (I took everything in the east that was above 6,000 - hopefully I didn't miss any routes).

From the TTC's 2004 Service Report: transit.toronto.on.ca/arc...s/2004.pdf

Route # / Route Name / Riders per day:

39 / Finch East / 42,600
85 / Sheppard East / 25,500
34 / Eglinton East / 22,000
24 / Victoria Park / 21,800
54 / Lawerence East / 20,200
53 / Steeles East / 19,800
102 / Markham Road / 19,100
43 / Kennedy / 12,600
57 / Midland / 11,500
86 / Scarborough 15,000
133 / Neilson (includes 38 Highland Creek) / 12,000
129 / McCowan North / 11,300
17 / Birchmount / 11,000
16 / McCowan / 9,400
21 / Brimley / 8,100
12 / Kingston Road / 6,400
502 + 503 / Downtowner & Kingston Road / 6,100

 

[roch5220]

Part of the scaberia transit improvements though could go towards improving GO service. I think there is also a cost issue here, ie. $3.70 vs $2.25 for GO vs TTC. If a smart card was used, and people had to pay for TTC based upon zones or distance used, and prices were similar, I wonder what actual ridership would be.

 

[roch5220]

70K trips per day is pretty much the maximum capacity of the LRT proposal.

How so? What would be the peak hourly demand. Technically, LRT can have 10-15K per hour. If you run the streetcars in its truely own dedicated line, plus run multiple together, who knows.

 

[rbtaylor]

How so?

From the first post:

On a dedicated LRT line they could be assembled into trains of three or four.

Capacity is about double the existing SRT.

I believe double the existing SRT is about 90k riders per day at crush capacity -- about 75k comfortably, and that is using multicar trains.

About 50% of the ridership occurs during the peak 4 hours you quickly get around 10k per hour. If the line is expected to be mostly travel in one direction then you have hit capacity.

 

[EnviroTO]

I thought the other thread was already discussing this and my post on this subject was in there. Anyways, here is my two cents on the topic...

If the subway shouldn't be extended from Kennedy to SCC then the Sheppard line should not be extended either. There is little chance that the ridership from SCC to Kennedy heading towards downtown would ever be less than the ridership from SCC to Don Mills heading towards NYCC. If the ridership will always be greater SCC to Kennedy than SCC to Don Mills then the infrastructure should always be greater from SCC to Kennedy shouldn't it? If they are going to keep SCC to Kennedy as an LRT then perhaps the Sheppard subway should be converted to use LRT equipment so future extensions to the line can be LRT.

I find it silly that they needed to hire some outside transit specialist to figure out the alternatives for an aging SRT if the end result doesn't even tell council what the best option is. A whole study only to rule out busses? Surely there is somebody on the TTC staff that could have came to this same conclusion. I think the TTC needs to sit down and develop "the criteria for approving or disapproving a subway" because if subways can be built where busses currently handle the load but aren't guaranteed where an existing RT can barely handle the load there is something wrong with the evaluation.

A subway extention to the SCC is an improvement in transit service to Malvern and all the other points in Northern Scarborough because without the transfer at Kennedy and the slow ride along the SRT route travel times will be reduced and convenience will be increased. It's more convenient to ride the subway to SCC and transfer to a bus to your final destination than to ride the subway to Kennedy, transfer to some SRT/LRT to SCC, and transfer again to your final destination. That transfer to the SRT/LRT is what makes transit in Scarborough seem so far removed from the rest of the system.

 

[EnviroTO]

That irks De Baeremaeker, who wants the subway extended into northeastern Scarborough, and ultimately looped with an extended Sheppard subway line.

"I'm going to be there Monday night pushing the subway right out to Malvern," he said.

Looped with Sheppard at Malvern? Is he saying someone would have to go to Malvern from SCC to go west to NYCC or that someone from Kennedy would have to Malvern in order to go to SCC? Either way that is an idea that makes no sense to me.

 

[Observer Walt]

A subway line from Kennedy to Scarborough Town probably makes more sense than the Spadina line to Steeles, and definitely makes more sense than the Spadina line up into the wastelands of Jane / Hwy. 7.

Generally, looking at the larger picture, I think we should be considering alternatives other than subways for new transit in Toronto. Some form of streetcar service on dedicated ROW, above ground, is the way to go and get the best bang for the buck. This one situation may be the exception, where a full-scale subway may be justified, especially if growth continues around the Town Centre and if intensification along the east-west streets (Lawrence and Ellesmere) ever seriously takes off (as stressed in the Official Plan).

I would assume that most of a new subway could be run above-ground. I know the present route would have to be modified to accommodate the wider turning radius of the subway trains, but I would still think that a lot of the existing above-ground route could be used. Above-ground stations also save money.

 

[Antiloop33rpm]

Generally, looking at the larger picture, I think we should be considering alternatives other than subways for new transit in Toronto.

I really cant say there is a single subway proposal right now that I think makes absolute sense. VCC, replacing the Scarborough RT and finishing Shepphard are all fine and not the worst proposals. But they are certainly not great proposals either. Actually the replacement of SRT is one that at first I thought made the most sense, but the more I think about it, the more I wonder if there are not better ideas.

For example, why not turn it into a dedicated ROW LRT line that could, at a much more reasonable cost be extended even out as far as The Zoo? And here is an idea which Im not sure why isnt proposed, just continue running a new dedicated LRT line into the downtown core. It could be run beside the GO line for distance, maybe create a ROW on the DVP, hydro corridors, arterials, etc. I cant offer a specific plan and outline at the momment but it wouldnt be hard to put something together.

Given what is proposed, sure, whatever, build subways. But Toronto is really going to have to get some new creativity and forward thinking in its planning department because I cant see people continuing to support billion dollar subways that do not make the most financial sense.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

I went to the SRT replacement meeting tonight. I wasn't at all surprised with what they had to say other than that it was stupid and irresponsible to immediately cut BRT from the short list of alternatives since some form of bus-based infrastructure will almost certainly be needed to temporarily replace the RT during (re)construction, no matter which rail-based option they choose. Upgrading the RT vehicles would be an 8-15 month period of service disruption, LRT would mean a 3 year disruption of service and subways would mean an unknown period of disruption (which makes no sense because they'll be tunnelling the entire thing).

The cheaper, non-subway options will not leave more money available for other transit projects - the city can't afford any of these projects right now and it's not like upper levels of government will give them the extra dollars that are the difference betwen what the subway would cost and what the cheaper options cost to play with as they see fit.

A subway extension from Kennedy to STC is the only viable option unless whatever LRT scheme they propose continues along Eglinton, Don Mills, up to Viva, etc. Basically, I believe LRT is only worthwhile if it is built in conjunction with many other LRT projects to create a cohesive, connected GTA network. Otherwise, any non-subway rail option amounts to nothing more than a cop-out that keeps the misrable transfer at Kennedy.

Unfortunately, a GTA wide network of subways and LRT living in harmony with each other and with GO (which is criminally being ignored in this study even though Malvern is a short bus ride away from a GO train that gets to Union in like 20 minutes) is not going to happen any time soon, despite the politicospeak that Duguid, etc., were spewing. If there's not enough money right now to prevent a $20 million fare hike, how will there be enough to build a multi-billion rail network? They should initiate some subway construction bonds, as someone at the meeting pointed out, or borrow money since interest rates are still relatively low.

I find it silly that they needed to hire some outside transit specialist to figure out the alternatives for an aging SRT if the end result doesn't even tell council what the best option is.

Soberman is hardly an outside specialist - he sold them the SRT cars in the first place and apparently was an original supporter of the route and the technology. Although his bias showed during the presentation, his insight is valuable.

Janice Golding from CFTO (who is distractingly hot in person) came in late and sat next to me - I gave her a few comments on what was going on and about the RT in general since she had clearly never been on it before. She had been sent to the meeting to capture rampant NIMBYism/YIMBYism on film but it never materialized, leaving her and her cameraman somewhat disappointed and scrambling for a story. I respectfully declined to be interviewed on camera.

 

[Antiloop33rpm]

A subway extension from Kennedy to STC is the only viable option unless whatever LRT scheme they propose continues along Eglinton, Don Mills, up to Viva, etc. Basically, I believe LRT is only worthwhile if it is built in conjunction with many other LRT projects to create a cohesive, connected GTA network.

Its not likely but I keep hoping that an LRT like you have just mentioned will somehow makes it way into public discourse and gain support. To me, it is still the best option.

Unfortunately, a GTA wide network of subways and LRT living in harmony with each other and with GO (which is criminally being ignored in this study even though Malvern is a short bus ride away from a GO train that gets to Union in like 20 minutes) is not going to happen any time soon, despite the politicospeak that Duguid, etc., were spewing. If there's not enough money right now to prevent a $20 million fare hike, how will there be enough to build a multi-billion rail network?

Here is how I tend to think about the situation in a way that doesnt leave me completely depressed. In a few years there will be another federal election and provincial election in the province. By the time these two events happen, gas prices may be hitting the $100 a barrel mark. With a little bit of good timing, it could translate into a lot more public support for transit projects. And given that the GTTA, Places to Grow, and Greenbelt Acts are all moving along nicely, we might actually see politicians and the public willing to fund more projects, in a sensible way, with more closely co-ordinated agencies. I know its a lot of dreaming but its better than wondering how many more smog days there will be two summers from now.

 

[cacruden]

I am surprised that people are surprised that it takes 9 years to build the subway extension :lol

They can do it quicker in other places because they have not so overburdened the process with red-tape. You forget the Surveys, the Environmental Assessments, etc. etc. etc.

The actual construction is the quick part....