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TTC: Scarborough Subway Extension (formerly LRT replacement) (City of Toronto, Design Phase)

Streety McCarface

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Here's something to ponder: if all levels and stripes of government support the SSE, why hasn't it been completed yet?
Engineering studies, certain outspoken councilors, 4 separate changes to the plan, priority changes, delays in the opening of other subway extensions, more engineering work, etc.

The Relief Line is a project all levels of government support in one form or another...why hasn't that been built?
 

sixrings

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I know, I'm being facetious.



Eh, not sure about that. edit: not until quite recently, at least.
Too late to Google but there was several politicians from Scarborough who said they would not support the OL or DRL if they didn't get a subway too. And here we are.
 

Shining Tree

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'Value for money' =A term the LRT lobbyists & outer Scarborough political opposition weaponized when the sad plan to build one technology with little consideration to design details in Scarboroughs overall transit network with the negative impacts to future growth in the Centre was called out.

Other subway extension or connected LRT options never stood a chance to be reviewed in detail at the City level with such overarching opposition having no interest in actually seeing the long standing issues fixed when called to the forefront of an election. Even with 99% elected political representative support at all levels and stripes of Government within Scarborough.

Classism? Racism? Entitlement? Corruption? Some of all 4? Whatever the case may be some ousiders made a crap loud of noise and refused to even attempt to work with actual Scarborough voters (Ya, not the biased TorStar polls, another issue in itself)

Thankful that the Provincial Conservatives stepped in to fix the polarized one stop mess remaining from the dysfunctional City council and we will now build a very helpful backbone line for the future.
From an engineering point of view - I see many opportunities to improve on the B-D subway extension.
But politically, I understand why it is going ahead.
If opposition to the SSE would say that they agree with a continuous fully grade-separated connection to STC, then it could have been re-opened. Instead they are saying they want to go to the David Miller transfer plan. If I were a politician, I don't think I would open to the door to change, if I knew the change was to go back to 12 years ago. So many alternatives to provide continuous rapid transit were discussed and rejected that now that they have a solution that received acceptance, I wouldn't open it up for farther discussion.
 

Rainforest

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From an engineering point of view - I see many opportunities to improve on the B-D subway extension.
But politically, I understand why it is going ahead.
If opposition to the SSE would say that they agree with a continuous fully grade-separated connection to STC, then it could have been re-opened. Instead they are saying they want to go to the David Miller transfer plan. If I were a politician, I don't think I would open to the door to change, if I knew the change was to go back to 12 years ago. So many alternatives to provide continuous rapid transit were discussed and rejected that now that they have a solution that received acceptance, I wouldn't open it up for farther discussion.
That's a very nice summary of the present situation.

Yes, other opportunities existed but weren't seriously explored. Among those: a BD extension running partly above ground, or a branch off the GO/RER line running straight to STC.
 

syn

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From an engineering point of view - I see many opportunities to improve on the B-D subway extension.
But politically, I understand why it is going ahead.
If opposition to the SSE would say that they agree with a continuous fully grade-separated connection to STC, then it could have been re-opened. Instead they are saying they want to go to the David Miller transfer plan. If I were a politician, I don't think I would open to the door to change, if I knew the change was to go back to 12 years ago. So many alternatives to provide continuous rapid transit were discussed and rejected that now that they have a solution that received acceptance, I wouldn't open it up for farther discussion.
I believe the opposition has stated that countless times. We don't need two full subway lines to STC when one is overkill.

Transfers are a fact of life on transit. I have no problem transferring at Bloor-Yonge to head north to Yonge and Eglinton. That makes perfect sense to me.

Transferring to the RT also makes sense. I'm heading in a completely different direction, and it's a lot faster and more efficient than riding the King or Spadina streetcars. The RT is woefully underappreciated.

The solution for those who don't want to transfer is to take the GO Train.

In any case, I think what's been stated in this thread many times is that an above ground solution for the SSE should be explored. That won't happen since Scarborough was promised underground transit to make them 'first class citizens'. Barring that there should be a realization that the SSE means the Sheppard East and Eglinton East LRT extensions aren't probably happening for decades. The SSE is a very low value proposition. I guess it's not surprising - Scarborough has a history of making poor planning/transit choices.

Miller's solution was a great one - well costed, more stops, easier to expand and it would've made the Sheppard East extension viable.

I hope the people of Scarborough enjoy their extension and won't complain if there's little-no will to build more rapid transit in Scarborough.
 

Voltz

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Well can't complain about it now. We should push forward the SSE to avoid additional delays and at least get something built
I'm not a fan of foot dragging, delays, dithering, etc, but I would still have it switched back now, and I don't think it would be built any later.

Another thing I don't like about all this, is everyone was going along with LRT just fine, it was approved and everything, but when enough selfish politicians went to use the Subway for their needless vote pandering, that was the final debate, a decision had finally been made, now is the time to get on with building transit, we can't go back on this decision etc,
 

Shining Tree

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I believe the opposition has stated that countless times. We don't need two full subway lines to STC when one is overkill.
That's why the pro-rapid transit faction proposed extending the Eglinton LRT (not a full subway) to STC. But it was shot down.
Transfers are a fact of life on transit. I have no problem transferring at Bloor-Yonge to head north to Yonge and Eglinton. That makes perfect sense to me.

Transferring to the RT also makes sense. I'm heading in a completely different direction, and it's a lot faster and more efficient than riding the King or Spadina streetcars. The RT is woefully underappreciated.
STC to Kennedy riders are going in a south-west direction - so continuing south and west IS the same direction.
The solution for those who don't want to transfer is to take the GO Train.
If the GO train would make it to STC, this would be a good option. But that plan was shot down too. Although to be fair, it was shot down by the Liberals in charge of Metrolinx at the time, and not by the pro-Transit City faction.
In any case, I think what's been stated in this thread many times is that an above ground solution for the SSE should be explored. That won't happen since Scarborough was promised underground transit to make them 'first class citizens'.
It was explored, when the Liberals (Wynne) were in power, by a Liberal (Murray). My assumption is that the plan was not feasible and that is why it was dropped - because I recall TTC saying it wouldn't work.
Barring that there should be a realization that the SSE means the Sheppard East and Eglinton East LRT extensions aren't probably happening for decades.
EELRT I agree. Sheppard, I think, will be started after the next election (in both directions).
The SSE is a very low value proposition. I guess it's not surprising - Scarborough has a history of making poor planning/transit choices.
I agree it's not good value. Neither was Transit City. Quite often in public projects money is wasted due to politicians and obtaining community acceptance. Miller interfered in the planning and engineering just as much as the Liberals did when set the SSE route.
Miller's solution was a great one
🤣🤣🤣🤣
Miller's solution was a great one - well costed, more stops, easier to expand and it would've made the Sheppard East extension viable.
I hope the people of Scarborough enjoy their extension and won't complain if there's little-no will to build more rapid transit in Scarborough.
It was costed, but costs were all wrong. (it was costed with Jane LRT fully on-street. it was costed with Don Mills LRT fully on-street all the way to Pape station).
It couldn't be expanded because critical areas were built on street precluding expansion.
Finch East Bus has more stops than all of Transit City - so I guess that's an even better plan - just to add a few extra buses on it.
 

Shining Tree

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syn

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That's why the pro-rapid transit faction proposed extending the Eglinton LRT (not a full subway) to STC. But it was shot down.
It was shot down because it doubled the budget and eliminated any available funds for other high priority transit projects, all because Ford wanted it underground.

A compromise was proposed with it being above ground from Brentcliffe and including a two-stop Sheppard extension, but Ford rejected it.

The Ford plan was ridiculous - what would happen to any future Eglinton East extensions? Would they have to transfer at Kennedy?

A foolish political move that set transit back for decades.

Are you the poster formerly known as BurlOak?
 

W. K. Lis

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Toronto’s alternate reality SkyTrain: The Scarborough RT

The difference between Vancouver and Toronto is that the politicians (and NIMBYs) put their noses into the public transit decision making business.

From link. By Nathan Pachal, dated Tuesday, January 26, 2016.

From time to time, I must travel to Toronto for my job. Normally things are so hectic that I don’t really get a chance to explore beyond Toronto’s Downtown. Because of scheduling this time around, I had some time during the day to explore the Toronto Transit Commission’s rapid rail network.

One of the things that has always fascinated me is the Scarborough RT. This 6.4km line was built using the same technology as our SkyTrain network in Metro Vancouver. The RT opened in 1985, the same year that SkyTrain officially started operation.

For two systems built using the same technology, during the same time period, they couldn’t be any more different. In Vancouver, the SkyTrain network is operated by computers. In Toronto, the RT is operated by a human in each RT train set. This was due to political reasons. Because the vehicles weren’t designed for operator cabs, space is at a premium in the RT vehicles.

One of the things about TransLink is that it is always working to make sure the transit system is in an excellent state of repair. If you go to any SkyTrain station, or ride in any SkyTrain vehicle, they are all in good shape.

The TTC has not invested in keeping the Scarborough RT in a state of good repair. It has only done the required maintenance to keep the RT from falling apart. The stations have missing ceiling bits, light fixtures are missing coverings, and while the stations are clean, they haven’t aged well.

When I was riding the RT, the announcements were garbled, and it was noisy in the cars. People really love the SkyTrian in Metro Vancouver, but people in Toronto hate the RT. They hate it so much that the City of Toronto is planning on ripping it up, and replacing it with a combination of subway and conventional light rail.

I snapped some pictures of my experience with the Scarborough RT.

Click on image to link to album

While some people get hung-up about transit technology (I used to.) The Scarborough RT experience shows me that great rapid transit service is more about maintenance, frequency, and location than SkyTrian, subway, light rail, or BRT.
 

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