nfitz
Superstar
There's huge reasons. Read the Metrolinx Act.
Acts can be changed ... but right now it's not possible without changes to the law.
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TTC run by the Province?
- Thread starter denfromoakvillemilton
- Start date
Acts can be changed ... but right now it's not possible without changes to the law.
DavidH
Senior Member
I'm not so sure legislative changes are needed. The terminology above "regional transportation area” means the area that includes the geographic areas of the City of Toronto, the City of Hamilton, The Regional Municipality of Durham, The Regional Municipality of Halton, The Regional Municipality of Peel and The Regional Municipality of York and any additional prescribed areas" uses the word "prescribed areas. The act defines prescribed as:
In other words, The Minister of Transportation can simply create a regulation saying that Metrolinx is responsible for Ottawa, should the government wish to. True, Metrolinx can't go get involved in other areas without the government agreeing, but it wouldn't require changes to the act.
nfitz
Superstar
Yes ... but it would require a regulation. Which is a change to the law. In particular it would require a change to Regulation 189/09 section 1:
rbt
Senior Member
Adding another region to the list wouldn't take more than a month of the mandatory readings and likely no debate. Even in a minority situation neither side would argue against provided it was essentially a revenue neutral move (Ottawa started kicking in funds for their services).
DavidH
Senior Member
erikyow
New Member
Not to take this thread further off-track (no pun intended) but there's no need/use for a GO-style system, at the moment, in Ottawa. Least of all on trains.
A) The geographic boundaries of Ottawa are so artificially large that largely with the exception of Gatineau, almost all the regional population centres are either within the municipal boundaries (and, therefore, easily handled by OC Transpo) and/or they're so small and spread apart that they're better served by the current system, which is to have one or two coach buses a day to Ottawa, run by each municipality as part of OC Transpo's Rural Parnters program.
B) Trains make less sense because Ottawa foolishly moved its train station out of the core. They've been toying with the idea over the past few years of a O-Train from Fallowfield station in the southwest to the main train station. It only takes a VIA train 20 minutes to go that distance. An O-Train would take slightly longer with a couple of added stops in the middle (25 mins or so), compared to the 45 mins it currently takes to get between downtown and Fallowfield on the 95 bus. Factor in the 10-20 minutes it can take to get from the train station to downtown (depending on bus congestion and where you're going in the core), you've saved no time.
Building regional transit links throughout Eastern Ontario using the existing system of rural routes is currently the best course of action. To save the headaches of having to create regulations to amend the existing Metrolinx law, just have the province chip in money to these communities to operate their commuter buses.
As for the poll question, I answered that I would rather GTA transit be combined. That said, the path that most of the GTA transit agencies are on, which is fare harmonization, is the right one and one that would make a single system unnecessary.
A) The geographic boundaries of Ottawa are so artificially large that largely with the exception of Gatineau, almost all the regional population centres are either within the municipal boundaries (and, therefore, easily handled by OC Transpo) and/or they're so small and spread apart that they're better served by the current system, which is to have one or two coach buses a day to Ottawa, run by each municipality as part of OC Transpo's Rural Parnters program.
B) Trains make less sense because Ottawa foolishly moved its train station out of the core. They've been toying with the idea over the past few years of a O-Train from Fallowfield station in the southwest to the main train station. It only takes a VIA train 20 minutes to go that distance. An O-Train would take slightly longer with a couple of added stops in the middle (25 mins or so), compared to the 45 mins it currently takes to get between downtown and Fallowfield on the 95 bus. Factor in the 10-20 minutes it can take to get from the train station to downtown (depending on bus congestion and where you're going in the core), you've saved no time.
Building regional transit links throughout Eastern Ontario using the existing system of rural routes is currently the best course of action. To save the headaches of having to create regulations to amend the existing Metrolinx law, just have the province chip in money to these communities to operate their commuter buses.
As for the poll question, I answered that I would rather GTA transit be combined. That said, the path that most of the GTA transit agencies are on, which is fare harmonization, is the right one and one that would make a single system unnecessary.
dunkalunk
Senior Member
I agree with this type of model; internal agencies responsible for local transport with the larger agency responsible for setting goals and targets, and building a regional network (a lot how an octopus' nervous system works). I would also transfer authority of highway and regional arterial planning and maintenance within the GTHA (or even the GGH, if they so choose) to Metrolinx as well. In this way, we can avoid having opposing visions for transit and road expansion being put out by the MTO, Metrolinx/GO, and varying local transit agencies. By regionalizing the highways, it would also make it easier for metrolinx to implement tolls to fund infrastructure projects.
The MTO's role in all of this would be to set goals for Metrolinx, while Metrolinx would find ways to practically solve those goals. MTO would handle travel coming into, going or of, or travelling through the GTHA and set targets for Metrolinx to meet, while demands exclusively within Metrolinx land would be planned for by metrolinx with no direct input or decision making by the MTO. Metrolinx could further delegate to local agencies for problems smaller than regional scope.
Of course none of this will work if Metrolinx does not remain politically neutral, as a change of government can easily change the direction of the regional transportation vision.
As a side note, Waterloo Region will likely be getting presto upon the implementation of rapid transit. Regional staff are planning for it.
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Still Waters
New Member
There is no point in uploading anything unless the funding issue is resolved, and that can be done without going through the upheaval of a complete governance change. The only reason that there isn't full fare and service integration now across all boundaries is not because agencies don't know how to talk to each other, it's because no transit agency can afford to give up or share any of its revenue. Uploading any part of the TTC to the province will not guarantee proper and stable funding for evermore. It will just provide more fodder for everyone across the province to complain about paying for anything to do with Toronto.
kEiThZ
Superstar
I remember when I had suggested that the province should manage the heavy rail network, many moons ago. I got pounced on by certain members.
I have always believed that the province should manage the subway network in Toronto. The LRTs are debatable. Especially if they are going to be built largely as a really improved streetcar service to replace bus routes.
But with the province running the subway network and the GO network, we might finally see some real regional focus on transit expansion. Some real thought given on not just getting to downtown but about how to get from Markham to Mississauga or Brampton to Hamilton, or Vaughan to Scarborough, or maybe even Scarborough to Etobicoke. We might finally get past a system that's basically focused on getting people to and from their jobs in the core, to making the entire region accessible. We'd see things like Preston fully implemented in the 416, a subway extension along Yonge, maybe even the DRL.
And Metrolinx, beefed up with more powers, and with a better system of governance and more accountability to voters would be the perfect vehicle to get this done and manage the entity.
I have always believed that the province should manage the subway network in Toronto. The LRTs are debatable. Especially if they are going to be built largely as a really improved streetcar service to replace bus routes.
But with the province running the subway network and the GO network, we might finally see some real regional focus on transit expansion. Some real thought given on not just getting to downtown but about how to get from Markham to Mississauga or Brampton to Hamilton, or Vaughan to Scarborough, or maybe even Scarborough to Etobicoke. We might finally get past a system that's basically focused on getting people to and from their jobs in the core, to making the entire region accessible. We'd see things like Preston fully implemented in the 416, a subway extension along Yonge, maybe even the DRL.
And Metrolinx, beefed up with more powers, and with a better system of governance and more accountability to voters would be the perfect vehicle to get this done and manage the entity.
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Northern Magus
Active Member
I think we need to remember that this is essentially a funding issue masquerading as an operational/management one: whoever is managing the subways is inevitably going to be subsidizing them as well. That subsidy would likely make a real dent in the annual amount of money that can be earmarked for any expansion dreams. Add to that the fact that in the current economic climate of massive deficits: no one wants to acquire what is essentially a money-losing operation.
One of the biggest systemic problems with public transit here is that there is very poor integration of the TTC and GO, but any potential solution involves opening up can after can of worms regarding pay, say, and accountability.
Should Metrolinx become the GTTC and vaccuum up all the municipal systems underneath it? Probably. It would finally eliminate service duplications and allow, for example, someone to hop on a TTC bus in Scarborough, transfer to a GO train to Union, and then transfer to a subway to Queen -- all on a single fare. Service like this would probably eliminate the need to build any subway expansions that duplicate the service already available with GO infrastructure, which in turn, makes systemic improvements far more cost effective and feasible.
But the real question is: can Metrolinx become the GTTC? Not easily, not inexpensively, and probably not anytime soon.
One of the biggest systemic problems with public transit here is that there is very poor integration of the TTC and GO, but any potential solution involves opening up can after can of worms regarding pay, say, and accountability.
Should Metrolinx become the GTTC and vaccuum up all the municipal systems underneath it? Probably. It would finally eliminate service duplications and allow, for example, someone to hop on a TTC bus in Scarborough, transfer to a GO train to Union, and then transfer to a subway to Queen -- all on a single fare. Service like this would probably eliminate the need to build any subway expansions that duplicate the service already available with GO infrastructure, which in turn, makes systemic improvements far more cost effective and feasible.
But the real question is: can Metrolinx become the GTTC? Not easily, not inexpensively, and probably not anytime soon.
kEiThZ
Superstar
Yes, but adding to that is the annual song and dance to plead for more money. I'd rather have province run and pay for the thing (through the use local sales taxes, road tolls, registration fees, etc.).
I don't really know what's in it for the province though. They'd inherit all of the challenges of running the TTC an have to take the blame that the city and the TTC currently get pegged with.
Still Waters
New Member
Uploading just means moving the song and dance to a different conference room. The idea that making the province responsible for the TTC would somehow prod their collective conscience to properly fund the system is, shall we say, "not guaranteed." I repeat, there is nothing stopping the province from providing the necessary operating funding now if they truly believe that Toronto's transit system is a priority -- they did it for many years back in the 1970's and 1980's and that funding agreement was one of the key reasons that TTC was envied by other transit agencies. The results of that stable funding showed in how the system was able to keep up with growing ridership, by adding service regularly, conducting ongoing preventative maintenance, and expanding the infrastructure capacity through also-stable capital funding.
I agree, if I am the province, I would ask what's in it for me? In fact, they have nothing to gain and everything to lose, unless their end objective is to gut the system and put it out of its misery once and for all. In which case, uploading may be just the ticket.
And as for the dream of full fare integration i.e. transfers everywhere between systems on a single fare, how do you think that would actually work? You may be able to do it with a single fare medium as that's just technology (e.g. Presto), but chances are, you will still be paying some sort of extra fare, whether it be a fare-by-distance, or fare-by-system zone layout. It won't be any cheaper than it is today unless someone comes up with the extra subsidy. Single fare does not mean cheaper fare. They key to it all is still the funding.
I agree, if I am the province, I would ask what's in it for me? In fact, they have nothing to gain and everything to lose, unless their end objective is to gut the system and put it out of its misery once and for all. In which case, uploading may be just the ticket.
And as for the dream of full fare integration i.e. transfers everywhere between systems on a single fare, how do you think that would actually work? You may be able to do it with a single fare medium as that's just technology (e.g. Presto), but chances are, you will still be paying some sort of extra fare, whether it be a fare-by-distance, or fare-by-system zone layout. It won't be any cheaper than it is today unless someone comes up with the extra subsidy. Single fare does not mean cheaper fare. They key to it all is still the funding.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
The Toronto Transportation Commission (TTC) was created by the province of Ontario in 1921. If the province created the TTC, then it can also run it.
See The TTC's Past, Transit's Future from the torontoist.com at this link. It was published back in July 31, 2007.
See The TTC's Past, Transit's Future from the torontoist.com at this link. It was published back in July 31, 2007.
Northern Magus
Active Member
I'll raise you and Still Waters by posing a question: can you have effective regional transportation without a regional government?
Northern Magus
Active Member
Interesting point, but also remember its political context: 1921 was long before the incorporation of Metro or the 1967 amalgamations.
Quite arguably, from the get-go it may have been seen as something whose scale, ambit and costs were far larger than any single municipality could afford.
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