Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

[nfitz]

That would however be dependent on having the trains to do it - they don't - and on having enough locations with which to turn back trains - they don't.

I'm surprised it's that tight. They are currently using 64 of the 76 trainsets leaving 16% as spares. Gosh, what are they targeting for spares now?

I thought they only needed 70 trainsets (including spares) to extend service to Vaughan in AM peak, turning some 50% of the trains further north (Finch West?) - but they are still turning at Glencairn?

Hmm, in AM peak since Spring 2017 they've added 7 trainsets to extend 50% of the service to Vaughan. 2 gap trains, and 1 train on the Glencairn service, as travel times have slowed. Presumably 1 (or more?) of those 7 trainsets to Vaughan is also because of slower service (no frequency increase).

However between Spring 2011 and Spring 2017 they added 3 trains to the Downsview service with no frequency increase (and 6 trains extending the service from St. Clair West to Glencairn - presumably at least 2 are for the slower service.

So since 2011 there are at least 7 trains that have been added because the service is running slower!

Gosh, I don't think I'd picked up on the extend of this before. No capacity increase, but running more trains slower. How much of this is temporary? How much because of signals, and how much because of the track problems at the north end of the original Yonge line?

The decision to cut the number of Line 1 trainsets from 80 to 76 is starting to look questionable!

Perhaps they should be taking those six Line 4 trains apart, and assembling three 6-car trains instead!

 

[nfitz]

There are no plans to double-track Yonge - my guess is doing it will probably be even more expensive than building another N-S line given the complexity of the works.

I'd think so.

Despite everything being done, I'm starting to think that an additional line up near Yonge is the only solution. Perhaps a quasi-express with less stations.

I've suggested before running a completely new line up Bay Street from Queens Quay with stations at Union, King, Queen, Dundas, College, Bloor, St. Clair, Eglinton. From Davenport to near Davisville they can actually run under Yonge, because Line 1 is further east. From Davisville you can run under Duplex. If you want to have some fun, you can swap the lines at Davisville with a Lionel-Groulx-like station, so the new line, takes over the "express" line under Yonge up to Richmond Hill, and the original line runs under Duplex further north.

Surely such a line would be infinitely cheaper (and have a lot less closures) than trying to double-track the current line! Ultimately something is going to be necessary if subway ridership continues to grow.

In the long run they should break up YUS.

Probably, but it would do nothing to solve the current capacity issues on the Yonge portion. It might even make it worse, by increasing subway demand ... say if the Yonge Line got extended down Front Street westward or something

 

[M II A II R II K]

So I take it the line won't get built 3 years earlier now since she didnt win.

 

[micheal_can]

With John Tory wining as mayor, does this make this project happen sooner?

 

[Streety McCarface]

So I take it the line won't get built 3 years earlier now since she didnt win.

We don't know if Tory will try to speed it up himself. He's fairly supportive of the project as is. Only time will tell.

 

[Amare]

With John Tory wining as mayor, does this make this project happen sooner?

If anything it's more likely to be deferred even further out in the future. Let's remember that Tory took staff away from the DRL to work on Smartrack, which slowed down the whole process further.

Then if you account for the massive unfunded capital projects list that Toronto currently has, and well you get the idea. The project is "on the books" as Tory loves to state, but there is no plan in place to fund the line.

 

[raptor]

With all due respect to both Tory and Keesmaat, this project is not up to them unless they are ponying up the money. This project is solely up to Ford, and to some extent the Federal liberals.

 

[Streety McCarface]

If anything it's more likely to be deferred even further out in the future. Let's remember that Tory took staff away from the DRL to work on Smartrack, which slowed down the whole process further.

Then if you account for the massive unfunded capital projects list that Toronto currently has, and well you get the idea. The project is "on the books" as Tory loves to state, but there is no plan in place to fund the line.

Don't we have 9 billion in provincial funding that has to be matched 1:1:1 and another 5 billion for Doug Ford pet projects? If so, the city just has to approve a tax to cover their share of the 9 billion and hopefully the federal government will supply their share. With 27 billion, we can probably build the DRL (7 billion), Smarttrack stuff (3-4 billion), Eglinton East (1.5 Billion), Eglinton West (1.5 Billion), Waterfront (1 Billion), RLN (5-7 billion), SSE (4 Billion), Portlands Streetcar (1 billion). That leaves 5 billion for Ford's Sheppard extension desires (if those ever come to fruition).

 

[robmausser]

So I take it the line won't get built 3 years earlier now since she didnt win.

Hahaha thats the funniest thing Ive read all week, I hope you're joking.

 

[TransitBart]

Transportation polled as one of the highest issues region-wide. I’d suggest that any lack of attention on it will make for a short honeymoon in Toronto. The new smaller council will have a great deal less time for indigenous issues, art and speedbumps. The general level of taxation, transit and as it turns out housing will probably be the issues of the day.

And thanks Joe Mihevic for a great career, but if council doesn’t as have much time for meddling food truck regs that is fine by me.

I disagree strongly with the manner in which the current Toronto was formed. But the city government has found time for a lot of local nonsense since amalgamation which is more becoming of a tiny township.

This council oversees an annual budget of over $11 billion dollars. I hope they are a serious, tough lot.

They are going to have to give a serious re-think to some significant issues.

1. Taxation. The level and how to tax.
2. Transit.
3. Policing. The guns are not going to disappear.
4. Development overall. How it relates to official plans and transit.
5. Housing.

Unless they are going to work 80 hour weeks (and even then...), food trucks and neighbourhoods are going to fall waaaay down in the list.

 

[nfitz]

Hahaha thats the funniest thing Ive read all week, I hope you're joking.

We'll never know, surely. Presumably the current schedule holding is the best case scenario, as these things always seem to open later than scheduled, not earlier!

 

[smallspy]

I'm surprised it's that tight. They are currently using 64 of the 76 trainsets leaving 16% as spares. Gosh, what are they targeting for spares now?

That's a good question - the last time I saw a subway fleet plan I thought that they had earmarked 65 sets for service once all of the work was completed. As you've noted we're up to 64 already, and there's been no improvement on the headways either.

I thought they only needed 70 trainsets (including spares) to extend service to Vaughan in AM peak, turning some 50% of the trains further north (Finch West?) - but they are still turning at Glencairn?

Finch West is a very long term goal for the short turn location, and so to that end they've built the trackwork for it. It will continue to be Glencairn for the time being until such a point at which they need to move it up to Wilson. And I'm not even sure that they have a schedule for that anymore, as the construction of the additional track required to make that work has been deferred indefinitely. They had originally intended for that to happen in 2022 or so - but then again, they had intended the St Clair West short turn to be extended to Glencairn in 2010 and it didn't happen until 2014, so there's that.

Hmm, in AM peak since Spring 2017 they've added 7 trainsets to extend 50% of the service to Vaughan. 2 gap trains, and 1 train on the Glencairn service, as travel times have slowed. Presumably 1 (or more?) of those 7 trainsets to Vaughan is also because of slower service (no frequency increase).

However between Spring 2011 and Spring 2017 they added 3 trains to the Downsview service with no frequency increase (and 6 trains extending the service from St. Clair West to Glencairn - presumably at least 2 are for the slower service.

So since 2011 there are at least 7 trains that have been added because the service is running slower!

That is all more-or-less correct, yes.

Gosh, I don't think I'd picked up on the extend of this before. No capacity increase, but running more trains slower. How much of this is temporary? How much because of signals, and how much because of the track problems at the north end of the original Yonge line?

It doesn't seem to be temporary, and it has nothing to do with the signals or any prospective track issues. They have been trying to shoehorn more trains into the network in an effort to increase throughput through certain specific locations - Bloor-Yonge southbound in the morning is one of the most critical - but with no where for them to go they end up getting bogged down and clogging up the terminals. Which is where the actual limitations in capacity are.

The decision to cut the number of Line 1 trainsets from 80 to 76 is starting to look questionable!

It was looking questionable the day they decided to start talking about it. And all in the name of making their life easier to move equipment to-and-from the Sheppard Line.

Perhaps they should be taking those six Line 4 trains apart, and assembling three 6-car trains instead!

Unfortunately, that ship may very well have sailed.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[nfitz]

That's a good question - the last time I saw a subway fleet plan I thought that they had earmarked 65 sets for service once all of the work was completed. As you've noted we're up to 64 already ...

Looking at the November changes on Steve Munro's website, the 65th AM Peak set goes into service as a 4th gap train. So that's it with 14% spares (11 sets). And PM peak is up to 64 as well.

Meanwhile Line 2 only has 45 of 61⅔ sets in service. 16 spare sets (27% spares).

It doesn't seem to be temporary, and it has nothing to do with the signals or any prospective track issues. They have been trying to shoehorn more trains into the network in an effort to increase throughput through certain specific locations - Bloor-Yonge southbound in the morning is one of the most critical - but with no where for them to go they end up getting bogged down and clogging up the terminals. Which is where the actual limitations in capacity are.

The Finch problems are well known. But hang on, the extension to Vaughan didn't mitigate the terminal problem there? Surely they should have designed the Vaughan terminal ... which surely is going to be the end of the line for generations - to handle 2 minute service (currently 4.7 minutes in AM peak).

Unfortunately, that ship may very well have sailed.

Hence the smilie. At this point, they'd need new equipment.

Perhaps Ford can take over the subway, and simply stop Line 3 service, converting it back to buses, as Mayor Miller once pondered doing. In addition to saving money for the provincial treasury, this would reduce loads on Line 1 as well, making more room for those in 905.

 

[Edward Skira]

This council oversees an annual budget of over $8.0 billion dollars. I hope they are a serious, tough lot.

More like 13 billion most of which they can't really touch as its mandated stuff.

 

[TransitBart]

More like 13 billion most of which they can't really touch as its mandated stuff.

I wasn't asking them to slice it. I was hoping for a serious minded crowd who would steer the ship of state wisely. There is an oversight role - and an important one for a sum as large as you describe - for a legislature. They are responsible for getting the best result for us.