TTC: Other Items (catch all)

[smallspy]

Question, when ATC was planned out for the subway. Wouldn’t it be possible to put ATC equipment on the Hawker Siddeley H4s, H5s and H6 subway cars?

Anything is possible if you want to spend enough money on it.

So yes, the older subway cars could have the full ATC/ATO system installed on them.

But the question is: why?

It’s like putting PTC or Positive Train Control on a GP38-2 and a SD40-2 and it works.

It is not. PTC is an overlay on an existing signal system, and the only system that it interfaces with onboard the train locomotive is the brakes. As well, there is a lot more room on a locomotive with which to fit new equipment that wasn't around when the thing was built. That's a much harder thing to do on a subway train, which is already designed to be shoehorned into a tunnel only slightly bigger than itself.

Dan

 

[81-717]

Anything is possible if you want to spend enough money on it.

So yes, the older subway cars could have the full ATC/ATO system installed on them.

But the question is: why?

Another question I have is, when the H6s were overhauled and some original components were replaced with different ones (i.e. MA sets replaced with T1 inverters, etc), were they still in theory interoperable with the H4s & H5s, or did these modifications make them incompatible with anything else?

Wow so you're deleting our comments now? Goes to show just how much of a joke this place has become.

What are you referring to, exactly? The TMU debacle?

 

[CMQSD402F9011]

Anything is possible if you want to spend enough money on it.

So yes, the older subway cars could have the full ATC/ATO system installed on them.

But the question is: why?

Dan

I was asking if the Hawkers were capable of getting fitted with ATC/ATO. However subway cars last longer in other cities, one being SEPTA. Problem, is that TTC follows the throwaway culture from the U.S.

SEPTA has gotten full economic life out of most of its fleets, which have been exceptionally well made and durable and avoided useless frills.

Silverliner II's - 50 years
Silverliner IV's - 50 years and counting
Kawasaki B-IV's - 44 years and counting
Kawasaki Streetcars - 44 years and counting
Bombardier Coaches - 38 years and counting

Most disappointing recently is the Adtranz M-4's, which are being replaced after a mere 28 years in service.

 

[IRT_BMT_IND]

Another question I have is, when the H6s were overhauled and some original components were replaced with different ones (i.e. MA sets replaced with T1 inverters, etc), were they still in theory interoperable with the H4s & H5s, or did these modifications make them incompatible with anything else?

What are you referring to, exactly? The TMU debacle?

The inverters in this case were I'm pretty sure for the lighting and other auxiliary power, not the actual propulsion system which was DC chopper control from Brush Traction. Overhauling this (especially replacing DC chopper with AC inverter) would have been a much more substantial job. So I would assume they reminded compatible with all the other DC car types.

 

[smallspy]

I was asking if the Hawkers were capable of getting fitted with ATC/ATO. However subway cars last longer in other cities, one being SEPTA. Problem, is that TTC follows the throwaway culture from the U.S.

SEPTA has gotten full economic life out of most of its fleets, which have been exceptionally well made and durable and avoided useless frills.

Silverliner II's - 50 years
Silverliner IV's - 50 years and counting
Kawasaki B-IV's - 44 years and counting
Kawasaki Streetcars - 44 years and counting
Bombardier Coaches - 38 years and counting

Most disappointing recently is the Adtranz M-4's, which are being replaced after a mere 28 years in service.

You're making as assumption that SEPTA is operating equipment that was built for that lifespan. That is absolutely not true, which can be seen with the increasing maintenance costs and the multiple mass removals-of-service of various types of equipment. The the Budd equipment was built for a lifespan of 30 years. The K-cars were built for a similar lifespan.

If the TTC had no budget for replacing rolling stock then we might see fewer generations of subway cars than we do today - but we may also have smaller fleets, as well as even less reliable service than we do today.

By the way, I don't think that you will get too many people agreeing with you that things like air conditioning and accessibility are "useless frills".

Dan

 

[dowlingm]

I was asking if the Hawkers were capable of getting fitted with ATC/ATO. However subway cars last longer in other cities, one being SEPTA. Problem, is that TTC follows the throwaway culture from the U.S.

SEPTA has gotten full economic life out of most of its fleets, which have been exceptionally well made and durable and avoided useless frills.

Silverliner II's - 50 years
Silverliner IV's - 50 years and counting
Kawasaki B-IV's - 44 years and counting
Kawasaki Streetcars - 44 years and counting
Bombardier Coaches - 38 years and counting

Most disappointing recently is the Adtranz M-4's, which are being replaced after a mere 28 years in service.

My recollection is that PTC installs in the US were not easy in many cases because there wasn't prior provision for it in various locomotives/cabs. We may have an opportunity soon to see how long it takes to fit ETCS into an various Metrolinx cabs and I suspect in at least some cases it won't be easy there either.

If Greenwood was able to handle six-packs there might have been merit in forming T1s into fixed trainsets and putting an equipment cabinet at either end. But it isn't, and the T1s are even further into their lifespan now, so that's that.

 

[81-717]

Most disappointing recently is the Adtranz M-4's, which are being replaced after a mere 28 years in service.

Unless they get the H6 treatment (every single one scrapped), where's the disappointment, exactly (aside from the disappointment that only the Hawkers get this treatment)?

btw, they're not being replaced right this instant, after a quick look on wikipedia it won't happen until 2029–2031 when they'll be well in their 30s. And the fact that their replacements are due to arrive starting in 2028/2029 when the contract was only awarded last year means there's no reason why the T1 replacement can't progress at a similarly fast pace.

If Greenwood was able to handle six-packs there might have been merit in forming T1s into fixed trainsets and putting an equipment cabinet at either end. But it isn't, and the T1s are even further into their lifespan now, so that's that.

On the contrary, if GW could handle 6-packs there'd be less excuses to keep the T1s around longer than they should be. One of the excuses was to keep them around until Kipling yard was built, due to the limitations of GW, before they thought better of it and decided to abandon 6-packs & go back to 2-packs for the T1 replacements. Ever since then, the only excuse was the Feds dragging their heels in funding the replacements. In any case, I still don't see the need to convert the T1s from 2s to 6s even if they were to be converted to ATO.

 

[DSCToronto]

TTC proposing yet another fare freeze

"As a result of this work, the 2026 budget proposes the following strategic investments:•

Maintain 2024 fare levels for a third consecutive year - No fare increase for 2026."

Much as I like the idea of low fares, they tend to equate with poor service!

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

TTC proposing yet another fare freeze

As a result of this work, the 2026 budget proposes the following strategic investments:•

Maintain 2024 fare levels for a third consecutive year - No fare increase for 2026

Much as I like the idea of low fares, they tend to equate with poor service!

Election year it is.

AoD

 

[Richard White]

TTC proposing yet another fare freeze

As a result of this work, the 2026 budget proposes the following strategic investments:•

Maintain 2024 fare levels for a third consecutive year - No fare increase for 2026

Much as I like the idea of low fares, they tend to equate with poor service!

I tend to agree with you on that.

Honestly, unless Doug Ford ponies up to subsidize the TTC they will need to raise fares eventually. I am sorry that low income people mnay have a hard time affording transit but at some point we need to properly fund the system.

If we cannot get the required revenue from other levels of government, we need to increase fares.

The reality is Doug Ford won't fund the TTC's operating costs. No matter how much Olivia Chow or the TTC demand money from the province, it won't happen. We need to accept that reality and find a solution before the service gets so bad nobody wants to ride.

 

[DSCToronto]

From Metrolinx site... I was getting excited until I see it is FOUR PRESTO MACHINES. At one time there were plans for Fare Vending machines at all major TTC stops!

Metrolinx and the TTC are installing four PRESTO Fare Vending Machines (FVMs) at key street corners across Toronto, providing nearly 18,000 daily riders with more convenient access to PRESTO services. “Bringing PRESTO machines closer to home makes it simple and convenient for customers to confidently choose transit,” said Metrolinx President and CEO Michael Lindsay. “It’s about equity, accessibility and putting communities first.”

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

From Metrolinx site... I was getting excited until I see it is FOUR PRESTO MACHINES. At one time there were plans for Fare Vending machines at all major TTC stops!

Metrolinx and the TTC are installing four PRESTO Fare Vending Machines (FVMs) at key street corners across Toronto, providing nearly 18,000 daily riders with more convenient access to PRESTO services. “Bringing PRESTO machines closer to home makes it simple and convenient for customers to confidently choose transit,” said Metrolinx President and CEO Michael Lindsay. “It’s about equity, accessibility and putting communities first.”

That's one reason for removing bus/streetcar stops that are close together.

 

[max]

From Metrolinx site... I was getting excited until I see it is FOUR PRESTO MACHINES. At one time there were plans for Fare Vending machines at all major TTC stops!

Metrolinx and the TTC are installing four PRESTO Fare Vending Machines (FVMs) at key street corners across Toronto, providing nearly 18,000 daily riders with more convenient access to PRESTO services. “Bringing PRESTO machines closer to home makes it simple and convenient for customers to confidently choose transit,” said Metrolinx President and CEO Michael Lindsay. “It’s about equity, accessibility and putting communities first.”

Here's the link: https://www.metrolinx.com/en/news/metrolinx-and-ttc-expand-presto-access-across-toronto

Key points:

• Despite the claim they are new, they are in fact machines previously installed at Line 3 stations
• One machine was recently installed at Jane & Sheppard West
• A second is in progress at Markham & Ellesmere
• Two more are planned for Kennedy & Ellesmere as well as Keele & Lawrence West

 

[Northern Light]

TTC proposing yet another fare freeze

"As a result of this work, the 2026 budget proposes the following strategic investments:•

Maintain 2024 fare levels for a third consecutive year - No fare increase for 2026."

Much as I like the idea of low fares, they tend to equate with poor service!

I am of the understanding that there will be some further investments beyond the above......but they are being held back for now. Possible I'm wrong and they've changed directions.... TBD.

 

[DSCToronto]

I am of the understanding that there will be some further investments beyond the above......but they are being held back for now. Possible I'm wrong and they've changed directions.... TBD.

Yes, I only reported the (NOT) Fare Increase info. The Report notes:

As a result of this work, the 2026 budget proposes the following strategic investments
:• Maintain 2024 fare levels for a third consecutive year o No fare increase for 2026
• Maintain service levels and coverage initially funded in 2025
• Continue safety and security measures that improve customer safety and perception of safety across the network
• Fund the first full-year of operations for Line 5 and Line 6• Reduce the state-of-good-repair backlog incrementally• Accommodate additional service requirements for the 2026 FIFA World Cup
• Meet the City’s 2026 operating base budget target of a $91 million net increase over 2025 (lower than the $120 million outlook for 2026 that was presented as part of the approved 2025 budget).

SEE: https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2025/tts/bgrd/backgroundfile-260138.pdf