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TTC: Other Items (catch all)

There are some CLRVs, especially those that were rebuilt, that look perfect, one notably that I know of is 4011.
It would be interesting to read an overview of the cost to recovery ratio on the ones that are in good shape compared to those that aren't. Even if they don't meet the present accessibility requirements, one has to wonder if the value was squandered as per re-sale or re-use compared to just letting them slowly die.

It might very well be, as with many autos, that highest value recovery is to just 'run them into the ground', but some of the CLRVs ride a heck of a lot better than the Flexities, at least for street running. As much as I suspect the 'set-up' on the Flexities leaves something to be desired compared to the parent models in Germany, I am told by some drivers that there's a knack some haven't mastered on applying the brakes on the Flexities. That could be, but it still wouldn't account for the 'jostling' I sense of the three bogies grabbing and releasing un-synchronized. That's exactly what processor control should be doing, not exacerbating.

That being said, the PCCs still leave me the most impressed, especially the series that had the couplers on them, used to do the Bloor-Danforth run. For 5c as a kid.
 
It would be interesting to read an overview of the cost to recovery ratio on the ones that are in good shape compared to those that aren't. Even if they don't meet the present accessibility requirements, one has to wonder if the value was squandered as per re-sale or re-use compared to just letting them slowly die.

It might very well be, as with many autos, that highest value recovery is to just 'run them into the ground', but some of the CLRVs ride a heck of a lot better than the Flexities, at least for street running. As much as I suspect the 'set-up' on the Flexities leaves something to be desired compared to the parent models in Germany, I am told by some drivers that there's a knack some haven't mastered on applying the brakes on the Flexities. That could be, but it still wouldn't account for the 'jostling' I sense of the three bogies grabbing and releasing un-synchronized. That's exactly what processor control should be doing, not exacerbating.

That being said, the PCCs still leave me the most impressed, especially the series that had the couplers on them, used to do the Bloor-Danforth run. For 5c as a kid.

I am pretty certain that they would not meet accessibility requirements, but I could be wrong. And yes, the CLRVs do sometimes ride better than the Flexities :)
 
There are some CLRVs, especially those that were rebuilt, that look perfect, one notably that I know of is 4011. That one looks perfect. The ones like 4029 that weren't rebuilt look like a rusting marathon got to them.,.

Just because they "look perfect" doesn't mean that they are remotely close to that. How many of the 21 or so ALRVs that were rebuilt are still around? How many of the CLRVs were retired even though they'd received major bodywork?

For instance, 4029, despite its appearance, is known to be a "good performing" car.

Dan
 
Just because they "look perfect" doesn't mean that they are remotely close to that. How many of the 21 or so ALRVs that were rebuilt are still around? How many of the CLRVs were retired even though they'd received major bodywork?

For instance, 4029, despite its appearance, is known to be a "good performing" car.

Dan

Good point. When I said that about the C's, is because of the exterior looking good, not the car itself. And the A's, pretty much just 10 are around now. And yeah, 4029 is good performing for sure, it is out there pretty much everyday despite the rustbucket vibe
 
There are some CLRVs, especially those that were rebuilt, that look perfect, one notably that I know of is 4011. That one looks perfect. The ones like 4029 that weren't rebuilt look like a rusting marathon got to them.,.
For a self-described "ttctransitfanatic" that's a pretty silly comment. The problems with the older streetcars are not really their exterior (though they are looking their age); the problem is rusting frames, compressed air systems and analogue systems which one cannot now get spare parts for. Looks are not everything, or even 'much", to do with which cars can still actually operate.
 
For a self-described "ttctransitfanatic" that's a pretty silly comment. The problems with the older streetcars are not really their exterior (though they are looking their age); the problem is rusting frames, compressed air systems and analogue systems which one cannot now get spare parts for. Looks are not everything, or even 'much", to do with which cars can still actually operate.

Well, yeah by these point the parts for the CLRVs are non existent
 
For a self-described "ttctransitfanatic" that's a pretty silly comment. The problems with the older streetcars are not really their exterior (though they are looking their age); the problem is rusting frames, compressed air systems and analogue systems which one cannot now get spare parts for. Looks are not everything, or even 'much", to do with which cars can still actually operate.

Actually to be completely fair, the "analogue" systems aren't a problem as there are lots and lots of parts to be salvaged from retired cars now.

The compressed air systems however are. The trucks and various driveline components are even more so, as due to the design of the trucks even changing out a wheel on a CLRV is a hugely time-consuming process. Several cars have been retired due to wheels being worn to the point of replacement - and the issues that they'd had with other systems simply didn't make them economical to repair.

Dan
 
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It doesn't work that well there, so it wouldn't work any better anywhere else.
The quest to concoct a workable rubber-tired replacement for steel-wheel light rail transit (LRT)—on standard steel rails—seems eternal. Several variants of running a “tram on tires,” typically with some configuration of a center guiderail, have been developed.

Such systems have been installed in a handful of cities such as Nancy, Caen, Padua, Tianjin, Shanghai, and a few others—with very limited success. (The Caen version, plagued with reliability problems, is scheduled for conversion to standard steel-rail LRT by 2019.)

Despite such technological experiments, nothing so far has emerged to decisively substitute for bona fide LRT. Even despite a slowdown in U.S. LRT startups (mainly a result of the Federal Transit Administration freezing new rail starts not already approved for funding), LRT expansion has been booming worldwide.

Nevertheless, hopeful inventors keep trying—the latest iteration being an offering from China. In early June, railway rolling stock manufacturer CRRC debuted a “wireless” and “trackless light rail” system for the city of Zhuzhou rolling on supposedly “virtual rails”. The new line is slated to stretch 6.5 km (about four miles).

You can watch a short promotional video on YouTube:
.

Actually, like previous iterations, the Zhuzhou “trackless train” is merely an elaboration of bus technology, involving an electrically powered, multi-articulated bus designed to resemble an LRT car. Sensors enable the bus to follow dashed lines painted in the roadway (although promotional photos and videos also show a driver with a steering wheel).

Periodically recharged lithium-ion batteries provide power. The bus is rated at a maximum speed of 70 km/hr (about 42 mph), and designers claim it can travel 25 km (about 15 miles) after a ten-minute charge.

In reality, there’s nothing particularly new about any of this technology. Multi-articulated buses have been operating in a small handful of cities (e.g., Curitiba) for decades. Battery power with recharging stations is an emerging propulsion technology now being deployed not just for buses but also for several new streetcar-tramway-style LRT projects, such as Oklahoma City’s new streetcar.

Optical guidance involving pavement striping has also been around for a while, albeit with less than stellar performance. It’s been tried and abandoned in several systems, including Las Vegas’s “MAX” BRT.

The length of the Zhuzhou three-unit articulated bus is just over 100 feet, and promoters claim it can carry up to 307 passengers. How comfortable that would be, even with air-conditioning, is dubious. (Exaggeration of effective carrying capacity by transit rolling stock vendors is commonplace.)

One of the designers’ nominal goals is to speed up public transportation development in major cities. But the emphasis of their promotional argumentation seems competitive—focusing on supposed advantages over steel-rail transit technology. Its developers assert a measly $2 million per kilometer capital investment cost for their invention (about $3.2 million per mile). So could this really become a replacement for true LRT?

In evaluating this technological LRT “replacement,” it’s first important to realize that installation costs of new “gadget” technologies are commonly lowballed by vendors. An investment of $3.2 million per mile would barely cover the cost of rolling stock, much less right-of-way, civil works, trackway (or a paveway), a signal and communications system, power, stations, and maintenance facilities. Especially in today’s cultural environment of “alternative facts” and rampant bombast, lowball cost claims need lots of scrutiny … and skepticism.

How would capital costs actually compare? As already noted above, LRT systems can be designed to operate free of an overhead contact system (OCS), just like the Zhuzhou bus.

However, the relative merits and costs of “wire-free” power vs. OCS have yet to be fully evaluated. While OCS can be eliminated, a power system is still needed to supply the recharging facilities. Propulsion batteries would also need to be replaced periodically, adding to long-term cost. Operational factors, such as particularly heavy passenger loads with A/C, or very steep grades, may require the higher power delivery of OCS. (The challenge of steep grades on future routes was a key factor in Cincinnati’s decision to install OCS for their new streetcar starter line.)

The Chinese promoters claim the “trackless” system could run on ordinary streets with other traffic, and seem to presume zero cost of right-of-way. But even in a mixed-use street lane, experience suggests reinforced pavement construction typically would be necessary to handle the considerably heavier rolling stock and intensive roadway wear-and-tear.

In reality, the trend both in China and the U.S. is to segregate transit in exclusive lanes—thus, a dedicated paveway for buses and track lanes for LRT. A fair comparison of investments would consider the full lifecycle costs of reinforced pavement vs. steel trackage.
[...]
https://www.railwayage.com/news/could-chinas-trackless-train-really-beat-light-rail/
 
Caen, France, dabbled in this kind of technology before deciding to switch to light rail. It's a Bombardier product.

- Paul

lrt ehh style.jpg
 
29 February 2016
Caen: Guided BRT out, real LRT tramway in by 2019
[...]
From its early years, the usefulness of the system, as a substitute for standard LRT, baffled transit advocates and professionals. As John Carlson, one advocate posting to the Eurotrams list in 2004, commented

I found the system at Caen and also the one at Nancy to be a solution in search of [a] problem. While there must be some economies from installing just a guide rail instead of double-railed load bearing track looking at the system in [situ] I would have to ask if the guide rail is needed at all.
The vehicles are long and do turn some sharp corners but I’m still not sure if they would be beyond a competent driver and a well-constructed articulated bus operating without a guide rail.​
As time went on, other problems, such as pavement wear, began to emerge. Graeme Bennett, a transit advocate in Melbourne, posted observations about the Caen system in the summer of 2005:

A friend and I recently visited Caen and were shocked, stunned, and amazed as we watched and rode these weird vehicles.

We found they were speedy, but fairly noisy, and seemed to do the job well, although they rode more like a trolleybus rather that a tram, in particular with a lot of vertical perambulations and rear end whip as they rounded corners at speed!!
One point that was obvious is the fact that because the vehicles follow exactly the same part of the road without any deviation for cut in or out, … the road surface in some areas is becoming badly damagedparticularly at some of the stops where it was noted repairs have had to be made.
Even the smallest pothole will deteriorate rapidly and every tyre on every bus will hit that spot in exactly at the same place every ten minutes or so.​
Bennett also observed what seemed to be an emerging problem in keeping the guidewheels in contact with the center guiderail, reporting that “We noted several “Rerailers” around the system to direct the guides onto the track.”

By 2009, serious problems with derailments were being experienced. At the end of May that year UK transit advocate Simon P. Smiler reported that, days earlier, “there was another derailment in Caen, and now it seems that their TVR rubber tyred ‘trams’ are only providing a part time service.”

Smiler wondered “Will this result in the ultimate death of the TVR as a mode of transport? Caen was looking to getting more TVR’s to expand its system — so what will it do now?”

Caen’s experience re-opens anew some of the considerations we originally raised 15 years ago in our LightRailNow.org article prompted by the very similar new guided-bus system in Nancy (also plagued with guidance reliability problems): «“Misguided Bus”? Nancy’s BRT Debacle Exposes Pitfalls of “Half-Price Tramway”». Asking “Does the ‘guided bus’ really have a purpose in life?” our article pointed out that

They basically will have a system of elongated trolleybuses camouflaged as “trams”, with lots of gadgetry to keep the buses on course. They will have a central slot to deal with in the middle of the paveway (tending to collect rain, mud, etc.). And they will be persistently trying to solve lots of operational challenges over the next months and years to prove the whole thing works. Thus one can safely predict that Nancy will be expending a lot of its planning and administrative energy trying to solve the challenges of making a trolleybus system mimic the performance of an LRT system.
There’s a recurring question: Why bother at all with the guide rail in the slot? it is dubious whether such an arrangement will permit higher vehicle speeds, although Nancy designers seem to think their bus will run a bit faster in a narrow right-of-way if it’s guided in this fashion. One is tempted to suspect that the extra-long, multi-articulated bus benefits from having its axles guided by such a mechanism, possibly minimizing any misalignment of the rear section while in the guideway (which might explain why the vehicle tends to “fishtail” when free-running).
And beyond the question of whether it’s worthwhile trying to imbue a bus with LRT characteristics, there’s another issue as well. Once a transit agency or government entity buys into an entire, specific “guided-bus” technology, its planners and decisionmakers commit to a specialized guideway and technical infrastructure using one form or another of specially designed curbs, below-pavement conduits, special travel lane markings, etc. That might happen after the initial order of vehicles, where competition is alive and well, and the initial bidding environment may be fairly competitive among a number of vendors.
However, the agency then has a stock of specialized buses with a 12 or 15-year life expectancy and capital costs sunk into building a specialized guideway which may work properly with only one manufacturer’s product. When the agency proceeds to expand the fleet or must find replacement buses, it may well find itself “trapped” with only one manufacturer/bidder. Is any vendor going to assure transit planners that its proprietary technology will become an industry standard in the next dozen years?
In contrast, imagine instead that the transit agency set down a few miles of steel rails with 1435 mm (standard) track gauge with readily available, dependable track switches, and mature signalling technology. The agency buys a couple of dozen light rail vehicles which have a lifespan of 30 to 50 years with trainlined controls so that one operator can control two to four cars. When it’s necessary to expand that system or replace the vehicles, the agency will find at least half a dozen suppliers lined up who can make cars which will work fine with the previous generation. Productivity is better, competition is alive and well, and the technology is mature.​
Certainly, in view of recent experience, those comments seem as relevant today as they were a decade and a half ago. ■
https://lightrailnow.wordpress.com/2016/02/29/caen-guided-brt-out-real-lrt-tramway-in-by-2019/
 

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