TTC: Jane (LRT) RapidTO

[DJankowski]

Junction to Bloor West stretch constricted

I doubt that there is a practical way to widen Jane south of Dundas by even one lane, let alone two. I marked existing buildings that butt up right to the sidewalk in this Google map. The large swath of retail from Annette down toward the subway is prominent, but note the St. Johns intersection is also choked on three corners. Not apparent in the map, The Pizza Nova at the SE corner of Dundas and Jane sits on a hill sloping down toward the intersection.

Not on the map, a number of homes on the West side of the street do not have garages or lanes, and rely on pad parking in the front yard.

 

[nfitz]

I don't think anyone is suggesting that it be widened past the existing 4 lanes. Either you'd simply make 2 lanes no parking, and the other 2 for transit, or you tunnel, which I think is what they are thinking of, if they actually go down this piece of Jane.

Now what they could do, is be really radical, and run the streetcar in mixed traffic south of St. Clair. Through the use of parking limitations and diamond lanes in rush-hour as well as (real) transit priority signals, you could accomplish most of what you want for a a lot less cash. But there seems to be paranoia at TTC about even a limited amount of new shared track, for anything more than non-revenue service.

 

[doady]

I doubt that there is a practical way to widen Jane south of Dundas by even one lane, let alone two. I marked existing buildings that butt up right to the sidewalk in this Google map. The large swath of retail from Annette down toward the subway is prominent, but note the St. Johns intersection is also choked on three corners. Not apparent in the map, The Pizza Nova at the SE corner of Dundas and Jane sits on a hill sloping down toward the intersection.

Not on the map, a number of homes on the West side of the street do not have garages or lanes, and rely on pad parking in the front yard.

Buildings can be demolished.

 

[nfitz]

I don't think it's realistic to propose knocking down blocks of houses to widen a streetcar line. Doing exactly that on the east-side of Coxwell to build the Gardiner Expressway was what lead to a lot of opposition to it.

 

[DJankowski]

Buildings can be demolished.

I take it you don't live there.

 

[Rainforest]

Now what they could do, is be really radical, and run the streetcar in mixed traffic south of St. Clair. Through the use of parking limitations and diamond lanes in rush-hour as well as (real) transit priority signals, you could accomplish most of what you want for a a lot less cash. But there seems to be paranoia at TTC about even a limited amount of new shared track, for anything more than non-revenue service.

This might be a case of well-founded paranoia. If that short mixed-traffic section gets jammed, headways on the whole line will be messed up. That would negate all benefits of the LRT.

IMO this line should be either run through the Weston corridor, or tunneled to Jane Stn, or just installed between Eglinton and Steeles and run as a branch of Eglinton LRT, retaining bus service between Bloor and Eglinton.

Or, perhaps the Jane line should be deferred till Phase 2, and Kipling LRT be built instead of it in Phase 1.

 

[W. K. Lis]

There is a revision on the FAQ PDF. It now has two stop locations layouts: Surface LRT and Mixed Surface & Underground LRT.

The Mixed version shows the LRT going underground at Wilson, with stations at Wilson, Maple Leaf, Lawrence, Weston, Eglinton (surface stop), Outlook, St. Clair, Annette, and Bloor.

I think if it has be Jane Street only, it should be above ground from Steeles until Tretheway Drive, going under the railway and Weston Road, emerging above ground through Eglinton Flats, going through the hill at Lambton and emerging at Black Creek, and underground again south of Black Creek down to Bloor.

 

[adma]

I don't think it's realistic to propose knocking down blocks of houses to widen a streetcar line. Doing exactly that on the east-side of Coxwell to build the Gardiner Expressway was what lead to a lot of opposition to it.

And in Dichotomy's eyes, that led to the Fall Of Toronto...

 

[nfitz]

Ah yes, of course! This is what lead us to not reaching the great heights of Cleveland or Pittsburgh!

 

[Rainforest]

Rainforest

There is a revision on the FAQ PDF. It now has two stop locations layouts: Surface LRT and Mixed Surface & Underground LRT.

The Mixed version shows the LRT going underground at Wilson, with stations at Wilson, Maple Leaf, Lawrence, Weston, Eglinton (surface stop), Outlook, St. Clair, Annette, and Bloor.

I think if it has be Jane Street only, it should be above ground from Steeles until Tretheway Drive, going under the railway and Weston Road, emerging above ground through Eglinton Flats, going through the hill at Lambton and emerging at Black Creek, and underground again south of Black Creek down to Bloor.

I wonder if the ridership forecast shows a substantially higher ridership for the "Mixed Surface & Underground" option, due to its better speed.

Note that the cost of that option will be dramatically higher than the 800 million currently stated. We are probably looking at 1.2 - 1.4 B.

 

[drum118]

What did I hear at Tuesday meeting?

We want a subway that goes some where west of Jane and south of Steeles as an east-west line and then goes to the airport.

We are forming a Subway group since we want the same thing as other parts of the city has considering we a very poorly service for transit now.

It takes me 2 hrs to get to work over by Victoria and Sheppard from the Jane/Finch area.

We don't want LRT's, we want subway

I going to run in the next election to kill this thinking.

We (TTC) are looking at using a single line in places where we cannot put in 2 tracks.

We (TTC) are looking at building an extension to the Sheppard line to fill in the gap between Yonge and Downsview

We (TTC) are looking at using the U-Brand for part of the line

The head of Paris transit is coming to Toronto on Sept 6 and talk about his system and why is there a move away from Metro to LRT's.

We know about the St Clair extension, but have not been instructed by TTC to show how it will connect to the Jane Line. Regardless if the Jane line is above or below ground, there will be an impact on the St Clair extension.

The Jane Underpass will have to be 100% rebuild due to centre support if at surface.

Never will work.

We don't want more people.

We (TTC/city) are not prepared to tear down buildings along Jane St to put in a surface system. We will look at removing a lane of traffic first.

+++++++++++++++++
I was asked by one of TTC commissioners to talk to a group about LRT transit since I knew more about the system than they did or every will even if they stay on for a few more years.

Talked to another group why subway was not the way to go.

I found the event unprepared for the public lack of knowledge as to what taking place or what it was. The public did not have a understanding what and when things take place on the route or what the route look like. A few team members should not be out there in the first place as they are only hurting the project.

Taking a real close look at the route going up, it reinforce what I already know about the route. A subway is require south of Wilson.

I have said in the past south of Eglinton will have to be underground. There are a few places between Eglinton and Wilson that are tight. After looking at it again, you are better off putting it underground also.

Some parts north of Wilson have some issues to the point retaining walls will have to be built along the property line to get the extra room to support 6 lanes let alone bike lanes since they are below street level or above it.

I do have issues with a few missing stations for the underground section as it will be too far and over 500m's. One stop is on the grade and that becomes an issue as well why it was not there.

I don't support the options for the line to go over to the Steeles station. The line is better off going north of Steeles to the 407 station. A fair number of riders do go north of Steeles in the first place as well allowing the line to be extended north into the 905 at a later date. The only option I would look at is along Steeles. Moreso, since York does not want TTC on their land in the first place.

As for the single line, that wild thinking by TTC and unheard of these days. Only good for short sections with long headway.

I was asked by the chair what the distance was between Bloor and Eglinton while he was trying to look for the distance during our conversation and said 4.5k after some quick calculation. He said you are dead on and show me the info on his blackberry. 4.5*$250 =$1.125b vs 4.5*$35m =$155m. TC cost keeps on climbing and climbing like I said they would be since it was understated in the beginning.

Oh!! I see Harvey's is gone on Jane now.
The chair did say to a group it would cost $40b to put TC underground and would do it if he had the money. Since he doesn't, it has to be this way.

As for the extension, it long over due. If a Y is put in like I have said in the past, it would free up spaces on the Youge line as well providing service to York using every other train. If for what every reasons, TTC could close off a section of the Yonge line and still get riders downtown without putting buses on the route.

 

[Observer Walt]

Another public meeting is being held Thurs. Aug. 28, 6.30 - 9.00 pm. It's at Syme Woolner School, 69 Pritchard Avenue (Jane and St. Clair area). I'm going to try to be there.

I will be interested to see what is planned south of Dundas Street, where the street is four lanes wide including on-street parking, and can't really be widened unless someone wants to go in and do major block-busting (won't happen!)

I also wonder about the steep grades on Jane immediately north and immediately south of Eglinton. Can a streetcar handle those grades, or will tunneling be required? Maybe an elevated line could be built across that valley?

 

[nfitz]

I will be interested to see what is planned south of Dundas Street, where the street is four lanes wide including on-street parking, and can't really be widened unless someone wants to go in and do major block-busting (won't happen!)

We've known since day one that a tunnel was what the thinking is.

This have both the tunnel and surface route option available, appears to be the classic consultant's trick of putting out an option that will draw everyone's fire and wrath, with no intention to actually implement it. That way everyone ignores the actual plan, doesn't cause much trouble, and you look like you've listened to people.

 

[urbanfan89]

I wonder what Steve Munro thinks of the second option for the Jane LRT.

"It's good, because it's intended as Light Rail. Never mind the fact that over half of it is underground and station spacing is longer than on Bloor/Danforth."

 

[W. K. Lis]

If Jane is to go underground in its south portion, how many tunnels would be dug?
If two, then each northbound and southbound would have its own tunnel.
If one, then the tunnel will be shared, and at a lower cost to build.