TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

[Steve X]

Keep in mind other systems have proper lights to tell the driver of the streetcar or LRT that the track is aligned for them and most of them are newer then our current network is. I doubt the city would be happy if the TTC decided to rip up all the intersections and other places to replace the switches.

They don't have to anymore. Most of the intersections are built to the newer standard where they can just close the streetcar lane, excavate the top layer of concrete, replace the switch and pour in new concrete. Should only take a weekend. They just have to cut that section of the rail and weld in a new switch.

Of course it would be easier to do when they redo all the intersections again in 15-20 years.

 

[drum118]

Amid Bombardier delays, TTC eyeing buses instead of streetcars

 

[Admiral Beez]

Amid Bombardier delays, TTC eyeing buses instead of streetcars

Simple, put out a new RFP for the 60 additional streetcars to all possible manufacturers, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tram_builders

But remove any consideration of fleet and supplier legacy or manufacturing locality, provincial job protections etc, etc. from the bid. Just make it about delivery on time, to spec, to price and quality standards. If Bombardier can win on those terms, then good on them.

 

[drum118]

Simple, put out a new RFP for the 60 additional streetcars to all possible manufacturers, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tram_builders

But remove any consideration of fleet and supplier legacy or manufacturing locality, provincial job protections etc, etc. from the bid. Just make it about delivery on time, to spec, to price and quality standards. If Bombardier can win on those terms, then good on them.

I and others have being saying this for some time. Should happen on day one.

Most contracts in the US and else where call for $1-$2,000 a day in liquidate Damages for each day a car is not delivery and in service. C.F.A owes both Kansas City and Cincinnati close to $400,000 each for their late delivery, but didn't cause any delay of service that started in KC in May and Cincinnati this past weekend.

The delivery of these 60 cars should start within 2 years of award, with the first one being a prototype. Options for more cars should be in the bid.

 

[Admiral Beez]

What annoys me about these late deliveries is it spoils an otherwise positive vibe for Torontonians. I remember the first time I got on a CLRV in the 1980s and thinking, wow this is amazing. 20+ years later, and albeit more aged and jaded, I felt much of the same when I first embarked on the new TR model subway, almost pride in our city.

At Doors Open Toronto, I visited the new Leslie Barns, and got to ride the new streetcar with my family. While I had a sense of pride in our new vehicles and our city, it was marred by visitors and TTC employees joking about how we can't get the cars, how we poorly handle procurement, choose sh#tty suppliers, etc. There are always idiots and contrarians even at the best of times, but it is as shame we couldn't celebrate getting something right for once.

 

[drum118]

Here one for the books. Detroit is getting its first new car 2 month ahead of schedule and they can do TTC 60 extra cars easy

First QLINE street car to be delivered this week

 

[UD2]

I and others have being saying this for some time. Should happen on day one.

Most contracts in the US and else where call for $1-$2,000 a day in liquidate Damages for each day a car is not delivery and in service. C.F.A owes both Kansas City and Cincinnati close to $400,000 each for their late delivery, but didn't cause any delay of service that started in KC in May and Cincinnati this past weekend.

The delivery of these 60 cars should start within 2 years of award, with the first one being a prototype. Options for more cars should be in the bid.

Bombardier would probably still win just because they no longer need to design a completely new design just for Toronto's special gauge, while anyone else would.

Although we should put in much tougher deliver delay compensation clauses.

The talks now is probably just New Flyer or Novabus trying to take adventage of the situation.

 

[drum118]

Bombardier would probably still win just because they no longer need to design a completely new design just for Toronto's special gauge, while anyone else would.

Although we should put in much tougher deliver delay compensation clauses.

The talks now is probably just New Flyer or Novabus trying to take adventage of the situation.

Track gauge is a non issue to suppliers.

TTC had no issues changing standard gauge PCC to TTC gauge as they were buying up cars from the US.

In an email from Alston in 2005, they stated they could have an off the shelf model that met most of TTC requirement in Toronto by 2007. The Chair of TTC wouldn't allow it since it wasn't coming from Thunder Bay.

If TTC set a time frame for the extra cars, will be hard for BBD to comply with it based on current mess and be rejected even if low bidder since they can't comply with delivery time frame.

 

[smallspy]

This is not something I've ever seen anywhere else in the world I've traveled. Other transit systems have robust automatic switches. The drivers do not get out with a large version of a tire iron at any point, and vehicles don't have to come to a full stop at every single switch. It really is properly shocking when you've moved to Toronto from elsewhere.

You aren't travelling to the right places, then. There are lots of "legacy" systems that use the same components and operate in the same manner as Toronto. What, you think Toronto could justify to have proprietary components made?

As for stopping at every single switch, I'll give you that. But you can also blame that on a couple of bad apple operators 15 years ago.

I'd say nearly every km of track has been ripped up and replaced since the 1990s. That's when the automatic switches should have been installed.

It's not as if we're still using Victorian-era rails and switches from the 1892 beginning of horseless streetcars in Toronto.

Automatic switches are quite expensive, both in terms of purchase cost and operating/maintenance cost. What they have been doing is outfitting all new switch installations with the equipment (boxes, conduit, etc.) to allow it to be converted to powered should the need arise.

But don't assume that every single switch isn't powered. They aren't. About half of the mainline switches are powered.

Simple, put out a new RFP for the 60 additional streetcars to all possible manufacturers, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tram_builders

But remove any consideration of fleet and supplier legacy or manufacturing locality, provincial job protections etc, etc. from the bid. Just make it about delivery on time, to spec, to price and quality standards. If Bombardier can win on those terms, then good on them.

So, basically, under the terms of the last contract that Bombardier won. Gotcha.

Track gauge is a non issue to suppliers.

Incorrect.

TTC had no issues changing standard gauge PCC to TTC gauge as they were buying up cars from the US.

Completely different situation, and not at all applicable. We've gone over this before, Drum.

In an email from Alston in 2005, they stated they could have an off the shelf model that met most of TTC requirement in Toronto by 2007. The Chair of TTC wouldn't allow it since it wasn't coming from Thunder Bay.

And again, we've gone over this before, Drum. Yes, Alstom offered a car for testing, but it would have required restrictions in where it could run, so the Commission rejected the offer. There's no conspiracy, and there never was.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[44 North]

Yes, Alstom offered a car for testing, but it would have required restrictions in where it could run, so the Commission rejected the offer. There's no conspiracy, and there never was.

In your opinion do you think it could be justified to purchase a fleet of, say, 50-100 non-Bombardier vehicles that would be restricted in where they can run? I'm more than open to the concept of purchasing Alstom or Siemens or X Chinese Company vehicles both for the purchase of 60, but also if we were to cancel ~25% of the existing BBD order and retender. Granted I don't know the technical repercussions, but I feel it could be optimal still. Possibly a faster delivery schedule than all-BBD, and the public may prefer the interior layout vs the somewhat disjointedness of the Outlook. But if the hypothetical new vehicles could only run on specific routes, would that be a dealbreaker?

 

[Steve X]

Here one for the books. Detroit is getting its first new car 2 month ahead of schedule and they can do TTC 60 extra cars easy

First QLINE street car to be delivered this week

TTC wouldn't even consider them. New company in LRVs and a major redesign might put delays in delivery. The two centre doors would force everyone to board and stay in the middle instead of spreading out. It's also not 100% low floor meaning not compliant for the TTC. The majority of the car needs a redesign for the TTC. Good for them for early delivery, BBD should work like them.

The bus procurement idea is actually a decent idea. TTC plans to replace the older buses soon either way. TTC could order buses to replace the 60 new cars on book next year to take advantage of the federal funds. Swap the bus replacement procurement with this 60 new streetcar option in a future year. This way would allow TTC to save money, have enough vehicles for operations and not buy another fleet and possibly having to modify all the stops again to fit a new fleet.

 

[dowlingm]

drum118 - you're being significantly disingenuous in proposing that another manufacturer can just slide in. Remember how even Bombardier themselves had to go back to the drawing board because their first design was projected to derail. The only thing these cars will have as an advantage is not having to provision for poles. EVERYTHING else, the turn radii, the 600V power versus the more usual 750V, bespoke track AND loading gauge, the accessibility requirements and so on still have to be met. Brookville have put together some small orders like Detroit, sure, but even 60 would be huge for them, never mind the original 204. By my count they have managed 17 orders total to date.

For me, the important thing is to get as many light rail vehicles into Toronto as possible. Alstom (Citadis) and Siemens (S70) have vehicles which could run on Finch West LRT, Ion, HMLRT, Hamilton LRT etc. and have the industrial and financial firepower to build at scale, albeit mostly with foreign content.

Let Millhaven build the Crosstown cars, let La Pocatiere build frames for them and for Thunder Bay, and maybe when the $bn dollar Line 2 subway order comes in Bombardier won't find themselves on the outside looking in.

 

[Napoleon]

But remove any consideration of fleet and supplier legacy or manufacturing locality, provincial job protections etc, etc. from the bid. Just make it about delivery on time, to spec, to price and quality standards. If Bombardier can win on those terms, then good on them.

I think that's the real kicker. I know the TTC is rather protectionist in its tenders, but I think it's time to give that up, at least in a one-time waiver. The one Ontario supplier of streetcars has now demonstrably proven that it cannot meet contract terms. It's fine to demand local content when it's available, but half of the current work is being done (and poorly done) in Mexico as is.

 

[kps]

Turning radius is the only major issue. 600V is common enough, and a supplier shipping standard and 5' gauge should have no trouble with Toronto in between.

 

[dowlingm]

Turning radius is the only major issue. 600V is common enough, and a supplier shipping standard and 5' gauge should have no trouble with Toronto in between.

Perhaps, but it's more about the fact that Bombardier has a proven design for the downtown cars whereas the other manufacturers don't, which means pre-production cars (remember 4400-4403?) and lots of testing mileage to check the dynamic envelope and all that. For the uptown cars, especially the non-Crosstown ones which probably don't have any signalling to worry about, there should be several "ready to roll" designs to choose from.