TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

[smallspy]

I wonder how many TAs operate vehicles >30m at 600V or below? I suspect not many. Look at how Confed line is being operated at 1500V. I have wondered in the past whether TTC has laid any pipe on lifting the downtown network to 750V and whether Flexity can accept that change without physical modification.

In Europe - lots of them. Some even operate longer cars at the same voltage.

There have never been any plans to the best of my knowledge to increase the line voltage on the streetcar network to 750Vdc. Doing so would also entail some expensive work to separate the streetcar and subway power feed system downtown.

Dan

 

[robmausser]

Yes, however, I’m advocating even longer in, say, a 15 year timeline or 25-year master plan — the length of 2 new-streetcars (4 Peter Witts!). In this case, bidirectional operations become necessary. TTC would have to install a crossover near the loops. That’s just details, much cheaper than building a subway. Almost as long as a Calgary C-Train.


To clarify context —
My post is not discussing towing operations; I’m talking about powered EMU-style multi-unit operations, similar to Calgary C-Train and Eglinton Crosstown LRT (Which uses almost-identical vehicles, but chained). Has powered consists ever even been tested, specced, or conceptualized?

Obviously the route would have to be modified. The catenary (pantograph) and most of the track is theoretically compatible with powered consist operations, but you might need some modifications:
(1) Extra power due to consist operations at high service frequencies, so adding an additional substation or so;
(2) Crossovers near loops since 60-meter consists would not be compatible
(3) Closure of some side streets (Spadina style) to permit passenger revenue consist-operations
(4) Upgrade of frogs/switches at select intersections
(5) Raised subway-style platforms
(6) No cars for the lanes of the whole King streetcar tracks except at intersections (full transit-only), as a median LRT (like the existing one) outside downtown, and a transit-only corridor inside downtown (upgrade of King Trial to full TOC)
(7) Upgraded transit priority at all intersections for the entire King streetcar route, end-to-end.
(8) Installation of a LRT-like signalling system for safe crossover interlocks (positive train control safety for occupied tracks & occupied intersections).
(9) Possible minor electronics upgrade to the new-streetcars for revenue-passenger EMU-consist operations. They do that already in Flexities (the Freedom version).
(10) Possible modifications to certain curves so that there are no sharp turns for the consist-operated routing. This is not much of a problem for the King routing, though the route to MSF will be a challenge

Nontheless, still cheap compared to a subway.

This has been done before elsewhere in the world, converting a streetcar route into a surface metro — imagine converting an old tram into a long Calgary C-Train. That has happened before.

Yes, “pigs won’t fly” yet, but this will be realistic later because of changing downtown demographics and superdensification of Toronto. This would allow doubling of King passenger capacity relatively cheaply. In 20 years, demographics are going to be flexible enough to allow the upgrade of King streetcar route into a surface metro style route like the Calgary C-Train.

Basically the “Calgary C-Train” style conversion of King TTC to a King Metro. These consists won’t go everywhere on the streetcar network, but would potentially function well along an upgraded route such as the King route, which would be the most obvious candidate to upgrade a streetcar route to metro-league specs.

An opportunity exists to build a surface near-subway-rapid metro line for less than a billion dollars. Including extra vehicles.

Howabout a Double Decker streetcar? (im kidding of course, the bridge heights etc wouldnt allow it)

 

[mdrejhon]

Neat. Wouldn’t work for our case, though Hong Kong uses double deck already — but even those they don’t quite move as many per hour as a metro like Calgary C-Train, one of the few that has successfully done so with downtown iintersections. Metro-class throughout will require at least 8 or 12 sets of doors (equivalent of 2 or 3 linked “new streetcars” or LRVs) to churn passengers at six digits per day.

In Europe - lots of them. Some even operate longer cars at the same voltage.

There have never been any plans to the best of my knowledge to increase the line voltage on the streetcar network to 750Vdc. Doing so would also entail some expensive work to separate the streetcar and subway power feed system downtown.

Good point about voltage. Would be a pesky problem to solve, may limit acceleration (and thus caps ppphpd slightly), consist length (2 instead of 3), and need two pantograph raised instead of one (more contact surface, but may increase wear-tear on the cat), and maybe more paralleling power supply linkages to the cat between the existing power feeds to get enough current in order to serve twice as many vehicles on the same cat. Also, one could go with 45-meter single vehicles (which exist) that are limited to one upgraded route. As elsewhere shows, doesn’t prevent light-metroizing a streetcar route.

Having gotten a 99% in high school electronics class (hobby elective, never became a career)...
...I know Ohm’s Law can be a bitch.

That 300V catch, tho. Still should be possible to reach 100K/day on an upgraded surface route with that voltage.

 

[smallspy]

Good point about voltage. Would be a pesky problem to solve, may limit acceleration (and thus caps ppphpd slightly), consist length (2 instead of 3), and need two pantograph raised instead of one (more contact surface, but may increase wear-tear on the cat), and maybe more paralleling power supply linkages to the cat between the existing power feeds to get enough current in order to serve twice as many vehicles on the same cat. Also, one could go with 45-meter single vehicles (which exist) that are limited to one upgraded route. As elsewhere shows, doesn’t prevent light-metroizing a streetcar route.

Having gotten a 99% in high school electronics class (hobby elective, never became a career)...
...I know Ohm’s Law can be a bitch.

That 300V catch, tho. Still should be possible to reach 100K/day on an upgraded surface route with that voltage.

Line voltage has virtually no bearing on the speed of the equipment running on it. Increasing it to 750V or 1500V isn't going to make the streetcars operate any faster - their traction motors are always going to be designed for the same ~600 3phase AC feed regardless of what voltage is coming into through the pantograph.

Where it does become a factor is when you're dealing with high currents & high draw - at levels far, far higher than anything required in service on something like the streetcar system of the TTC. And even then, there are all sorts of ways to mitigate that problem.

Dan

 

[mdrejhon]

Line voltage has virtually no bearing on the speed of the equipment running on it. Increasing it to 750V or 1500V isn't going to make the streetcars operate any faster - their traction motors are always going to be designed for the same ~600 3phase AC feed regardless of what voltage is coming into through the pantograph.

I know, but I'm talking about Ohm's Law and....

Where it does become a factor is when you're dealing with high currents & high draw - at levels far, far higher than anything required in service on something like the streetcar system of the TTC. And even then, there are all sorts of ways to mitigate that problem.

...this is exactly it.

Yep, as I mentioned -- mitigations. e.g. more paralleling stations, more pantographs raised, etc. Without mitigation methods (that exist and can be done), voltage will sag because you cannot push more amperage to a doubled streetcar fleet on the same line. Then all the streetcar acceleration slow down at brownout voltage (whether by the voltage itself lowering current, or by automated undervoltage-prevention electronics) -- if the line current is maxed out. But mitigate it, and that can be prevented.

If TTC already overbuilt their system and current can handle double vehicles on King -- kudos. One (or few) fewer thing to upgrade.

 

[Allandale25]

4577 was off loaded today with 4400 and 4583 waiting delivery to Hillcrest.

re 4583

Railpictures.ca - Paul Santos Photo: New Bombardier streetcar TTC 4583 ready for delivery while a Titan track mobile awaits a work assignment. | Railpictures.ca – Canadian Railway Photography – photographie ferroviaire Canadienne.

Tens of thousands of great Canadian railway photographs, discussions, and much more. Click to view the image or register for your free account. Please share this if you like it.

www.railpictures.ca

 

[drum118]

re 4583

Railpictures.ca - Paul Santos Photo: New Bombardier streetcar TTC 4583 ready for delivery while a Titan track mobile awaits a work assignment. | Railpictures.ca – Canadian Railway Photography – photographie ferroviaire Canadienne.

Tens of thousands of great Canadian railway photographs, discussions, and much more. Click to view the image or register for your free account. Please share this if you like it.

www.railpictures.ca

What will be off loaded next; 4400 or 4583??? Maybe 4584?

 

[W. K. Lis]

There is also the matter of section insulation. Each section of trolley wire is separated for each power substation they serve. (Could be shared with the subway, since it is the same voltage.)

From link.

 

[smallspy]

I know, but I'm talking about Ohm's Law and....


...this is exactly it.

Yep, as I mentioned -- mitigations. e.g. more paralleling stations, more pantographs raised, etc. Without mitigation methods (that exist and can be done), voltage will sag because you cannot push more amperage to a doubled streetcar fleet on the same line. Then all the streetcar acceleration slow down at brownout voltage (whether by the voltage itself lowering current, or by automated undervoltage-prevention electronics) -- if the line current is maxed out. But mitigate it, and that can be prevented.

In the case of low speed, low power systems like a streetcar, there is absolutely no difference.

Something like a subway or mainline EMU will draw a lot more power, however. That's why the systems that use lower line voltages (like Toronto, New York, etc.) use third rail rather than overhead.

But again, in the case of the TTC's streetcar network - there is zero benefit, and a huge amount of cost. Why bother?

Dan

 

[drum118]

4577 is now tracking

 

[TransitBart]

But again, in the case of the TTC's streetcar network - there is zero benefit, and a huge amount of cost. Why bother?

Dan

To fill space here.

 

[drum118]

4400 was off Thursday and is tracking. It left for QC Sept 07, 2018. That make 392 days since 4400 was loaded for QC and 400 days since seeing service.

May see 4583 Friday.

4582 out testing.

 

[W. K. Lis]

From a comment on Steve Munro's website (link):

Any plans to look at the TTC 5-year planning consultation? The shocker that 511 Bathurst won’t get new streetcars until 2024 was unexpected.​

​

Steve: Yes that’s a surprise and they are finally admitting that they do not have enough cars to restore service to all lines. They don’t even mention the Kingston Road services.​

​

I have not been very impressed with the work to date and too much is superficial or just marking time. Note that they don’t plan to respond to population growth until 2021, presumably when they get more buses, even though there is already a large spare ratio that would allow for service improvements. As I was invited to participate in the workshops, I have not commented here before pending the release of final proposals, although they have a long comment from me in the minutes of the first consultation which are not published.​

Again the suburban, anti-transit Councillors continue to under-fund the TTC, by not ordering additional streetcars YESTERDAY or even NOW.

 

[drum118]

From a comment on Steve Munro's website (link):

Any plans to look at the TTC 5-year planning consultation? The shocker that 511 Bathurst won’t get new streetcars until 2024 was unexpected.​

​

Steve: Yes that’s a surprise and they are finally admitting that they do not have enough cars to restore service to all lines. They don’t even mention the Kingston Road services.​

​

I have not been very impressed with the work to date and too much is superficial or just marking time. Note that they don’t plan to respond to population growth until 2021, presumably when they get more buses, even though there is already a large spare ratio that would allow for service improvements. As I was invited to participate in the workshops, I have not commented here before pending the release of final proposals, although they have a long comment from me in the minutes of the first consultation which are not published.​

Again the suburban, anti-transit Councillors continue to under-fund the TTC, by not ordering additional streetcars YESTERDAY or even NOW.

There should be no shocker for routes having no streetcars given the fact that the fleet will only have 204 cars some time around 2021-2023 when the last car of the 66 car is rewelded. Then, not doing a 1:1 replacement as first recommended back in 2005 is the main reason buses will fill in for streetcars as a whole route to supplying extra capacity for various routes.

I don't know how 511 will have streetcars in 2024 when no RFP has been issues nor there is funding for 60-100 cars.

I stated in 2005 by going to 204 cars was moving from one cattle car system to another with no capacity to meet pent up demand, growth, accessibility riders, strollers and so on. 14 years later we are where I stated we would be.

You can't blame all suburban councilors for lack of funding for more cars as a few x-downtown councilors didn't support the extra funding as well a province who didn't fund the cars in the first place. Toronto is paying 66% of the cost of the new fleet.

 

[dowlingm]

To my mind one approach worth looking at for 505 and 511 (and possibly other routes) until >204 cars on hand is to overlay streetcars running at ~10 min intervals with buses which run over parts of the route but serving other termini and therefore providing alternative destinations, as the 503 does for King Street.

For the 511, that could mean buses looping at the island airport quay rather than turning for the Ex. For 505, buses continuing east on Dundas rather than turning north to Broadview.

The other thing which can be accomplished without additional vehicles is to keep vehicles moving rather than loitering using step back crewing.