TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

[allabootmatt]

Does anyone know what time the announcement is? It's not in the CNW daybook.

Edit: answered my own question. 11AM.

 

[nfitz]

For rush-hour, absolutely, I agree. It's the off-peak services I'm more concerned about.

Though as I ponder it, the use of the larger ALRV vehicles on Queen during rush-hour hasn't really been much of a success. As a result, service is less frequent than it would be with smaller vehicles, and the need to short-turn vehicles results in a very unreliable service at the extremeties of the route. I see a similiar effect on the King and Carleton routes ... but as they are more frequent in rush-hour, the effect isn't really as noticeable.

 

[kEiThZ]

I don't think either mayor is speaking specifically of streetcars....they are saying that they did not submit certain requests for funding because they were told they would not qualify and that only qualifying projects would be funded. Their beef is that a similar warning/threat about Toronto's non-qualifying submission has just been ignored.

If true....its a fair beef.

I predicted this would happen and said Miller was off-base for submitting one request and got lambasted for it on here a pages back. I stand by my original assertion. Like it or not, the federal government was not going to craft a Miller specific exemption just because he decided to play crafty politics. He gambled and gave them an excuse to say no. And they did. Now it looks like the feds have support from Miller's own backyard. With McCallion and Fennell crying foul now, I am thinking it's even less likely that the feds will come through. Funding it now would look like Toronto got special treatment while the 905 got the shaft on transit porjects. I think they'll have to agree to the compromise solution proposed by Baird…ie use the stimulus to "free up" future spending and let Toronto pay for the feds share of the Streetcar buy.

 

[Hipster Duck]

The city could also, conceivably, borrow against Federal stimulus money that was actually earmarked. They could, say, defer water main replacement and crucial road repair to buy 200 streetcars from Thunder Bay. Knowing Miller's penchant for streetcars and downtown councillors' nuanced hatred for cars and road infrastructure, I wouldn't even rule out this possibility.

 

[GraphicMatt]

This is the game. This isn't over yet, not by a long shot.

The comments from the other mayors in the GTA sure make me think that a region-wide transit agency with dedicated funding from the Provincial and Federal governments sure would be useful. Oh, wait.

 

[kettal]

The city could also, conceivably, borrow against Federal stimulus money that was actually earmarked. They could, say, defer water main replacement and crucial road repair to buy 200 streetcars from Thunder Bay. Knowing Miller's penchant for streetcars and downtown councillors' nuanced hatred for cars and road infrastructure, I wouldn't even rule out this possibility.

Isn't there a few hundred million worth of repairs on the agenda? Just claim that back and ta-da $300 mil for streetcars

 

[rbt]

The city could also, conceivably, borrow against Federal stimulus money that was actually earmarked. They could, say, defer water main replacement and crucial road repair to buy 200 streetcars from Thunder Bay. Knowing Miller's penchant for streetcars and downtown councillors' nuanced hatred for cars and road infrastructure, I wouldn't even rule out this possibility.

FYI, last year before the crisis began both the sewer/water guys and the roads guys were given blank cheques to catch up on the essential backlog in both departments over a 5 year period.

That amounts to about $1B backlog for sewer/water (in 2009 documents) and $500M backlog for roads (from memory -- no idea where it came from). The roads department is really really bad at spending all of their money but they get every dime they can spend.


Essential backlog is state of good repair. There is a good chunk of "nice to have design changes" which also tend to go into the backlog calculations.

I.e. Dufferin Jog elimination was considered backlog but isn't really essential for use of the road.

 

[DavidH]

Here's the Star's update:

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/653608

Short version:
Ontario and Toronto announcing $771M funding, still short of the full $1.2B.

The biggest question remains whether Ottawa will come to the table with its share, or whether the city will have to fork out a larger portion or finance a chunk through borrowing.

And the Globe:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...in-a-third-of-streetcar-costs/article1188978/

The Ontario government will chip in one-third of the cost for a $1.2-billion streetcar project in Toronto, Premier Dalton McGuinty announced this morning in Thunder Bay.

The provincial investment of $416-million, matching funds from the city of Toronto, still leaves the question of whether and how the federal government might eventually provide funds for 204 streetcars to replace the city's aging fleet.

 

[jks]

I thought Baird said he would work with Miller to find a way to fund the streetcars
What did he mean?? Have the city pay for the fed's share? It's things like this that really make me pissed off at the federal government. Toronto is way more 'alienated' than the west.

 

[nfitz]

The contract is over a decade. Surely that's enough to start, and between the two of them the city and province can figure out the rest in 5-year or so ... or push the Feds to find it from a different program?

 

[kEiThZ]

Given that the costs of these streetcars will be spread out over several years, I really don't understand why Miller can't move up items on the maintenance backlog and free up expenses to pay for the streetcars down the road with savings from the reduced backlog (and lower maintenance costs). If the streetcars are being delivered over 10 years, that's essentially an extra 35-40 million a year which in theory would not start until a few years down the road anyway (with first delivery). That does not seem onerous or woth all this politicking.

 

[kettal]

Given that the costs of these streetcars will be spread out over several years, I really don't understand why Miller can't move up items on the maintenance backlog and free up expenses to pay for the streetcars down the road with savings from the reduced backlog (and lower maintenance costs). If the streetcars are being delivered over 10 years, that's essentially an extra 35-40 million a year which in theory would not start until a few years down the road anyway (with first delivery). That does not seem onerous or woth all this politicking.

There might be a problem here, as federal stimulus requires the province and municipality also share in each project's expenses.

 

[nfitz]

Yeah, the problem is that the City and Province between them have to find not only the missing $300-million that the feds won't contribute, but they also have to find the matching $600-million for the infrastructure funding. For almost $1-billion. And then we have to find $1-billion of shovel-ready projects in the City of Toronto that are not already funded, and can be substantially completed by early 2012. I'm sure the first $100-million or so of projects is easy ... but given that the province recently announced $9-billion of GTA projects that it is funding 100% of, it does seem a bit anal of the feds to be so persnickety about this.

 

[UD2]

Given that the costs of these streetcars will be spread out over several years, I really don't understand why Miller can't move up items on the maintenance backlog and free up expenses to pay for the streetcars down the road with savings from the reduced backlog (and lower maintenance costs). If the streetcars are being delivered over 10 years, that's essentially an extra 35-40 million a year which in theory would not start until a few years down the road anyway (with first delivery). That does not seem onerous or woth all this politicking.

There isn't point to do this. The Street-car grant will be given to Toronto in the end, even if it has to be another Liberal government who grants it.

The backlog repairs are already funded by what was described above as a blank cheque, so it's like low income welfare; The more you put in, the less they give you, and in the end you get the same amount in total. The problem with road repairs is not the money, but how fast construction crews can get to them.

I think if the problem is this easily solved, then Miller would've solved it already. I always like to think that if I knew more than the already elected, then I'd be in office and not them. Agree?

 

[kEiThZ]

^ I don't think Miller's exhausted every solution. The fact that he only put one project on there shows that he was politicking. Most cities provided lists for the feds to choose from. Ottawa for example listed dozens of projects (and they have the same issues Toronto does with transit, affordable housing, etc.) and gave the feds a choice. It allowed the feds to spread out money in different ridings. Toronto is proposing to spend most of the money outside the city for a project which directly benefits only a small proportion of the ridings. I have a feeling this is a big point of contention.

Many will disagree with me, but to me the one part that does make sense is requiring the money to be spent soon. It's not stimulus if it’s a 10 year plan. Moreover, since the money won't be 'spent' till delivery the Conservatives could then get hammered by the Opposition for not spending that money. We just went through a week of the Opposition complaining that committed or earmarked does not count as stimulus, and all of a sudden we expect the government to craft an exemption to that rule for Toronto when it wants to buy streetcars. That strikes me as a tad hypocritical.