TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

[rankman]

Frankly, the TTC and the City made the entrance to the QQE portal VERY obviously somewhere cars MUST NOT GO. The road surface outside has huge, painted, bumps, you must drive past several signs and when you are driving only on streetcar tracks ..... As the streetcar runs there quite often one wonders how any driver would have had time to remove the plates and wipe-down the car before fleeing!

If I were in charge I'd be tempted to lay down tire spikes somewhere so cars would have a difficult time making it into the tunnel.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

we don't see it happen on St Clair which has portals. The removal of the plates and wipedown of prints give the impression of something unusual - perhaps a prank?

The tracks in the St Clair tunnel are paved. People might be doing this every day at St Clair West, but we'd never know because it's trivial for them to drive out.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Frankly, the TTC and the City made the entrance to the QQE portal VERY obviously somewhere cars MUST NOT GO. The road surface outside has huge, painted, bumps, you must drive past several signs and when you are driving only on streetcar tracks ..... As the streetcar runs there quite often one wonders how any driver would have had time to remove the plates and wipe-down the car before fleeing!

The signage isn't a problem; drunk driving is. I haven't been keeping track, but it seems that DUI is a factor in the vast majority of these cases. All the signage in the world wont fix that.

A cheap and simple solution that might help is to install parking lot gates at the portal entrances. The drunkards might understand this a bit better.

 

[Amare]

This keeps happening because our fines are so lenient towards stupid behavior. They could try implement all of the prevention measure in the world, but if you're fining people ~$100 for this kind of behavior nothing is going to change. It's similar to drunk driving, people get a slap on the wrist anytime they get caught despite the numerous warnings not to drink and drive.

If governments (all forms of them) got their act together and started imposing fines based off a person's income for example, there would be a drastic change in behavior. But until then, we wont see any change since our politicians are too scared to imposed any form of change that revolves around common sense.

 

[smallspy]

I hope there's a security camera in Queens Quay station. I thought they were in all TTC stations.

There are cameras in Queen's Quay Station. They are monitored at Transit Control and at Union Station.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[BurlOak]

The signage isn't a problem; drunk driving is. I haven't been keeping track, but it seems that DUI is a factor in the vast majority of these cases. All the signage in the world wont fix that.

A cheap and simple solution that might help is to install parking lot gates at the portal entrances. The drunkards might understand this a bit better.

I'm sure there's a solution that costs hundreds of thousands of dollars that would be more appealing to the TTC.

 

[kotsy]

This keeps happening because our fines are so lenient towards stupid behavior. They could try implement all of the prevention measure in the world, but if you're fining people ~$100 for this kind of behavior nothing is going to change. It's similar to drunk driving, people get a slap on the wrist anytime they get caught despite the numerous warnings not to drink and drive.

I honestly don't think that's the problem. Unlike drunk driving, the people who drive into streetcar tunnels do it out of completely and utter ignorance. They don't know what they're doing is wrong. None of them are driving into tunnel thinking that they can get away with it, and if they get caught, it's only a $100 fine.

 

[Johnny Au]

I honestly don't think that's the problem. Unlike drunk driving, the people who drive into streetcar tunnels do it out of completely and utter ignorance. They don't know what they're doing is wrong. None of them are driving into tunnel thinking that they can get away with it, and if they get caught, it's only a $100 fine.

A $100 fee to pretend to be Super Mario is considered a steal for some.

Fines should be based on personal income. Remember Marco Muzzo?

 

[Amare]

I honestly don't think that's the problem. Unlike drunk driving, the people who drive into streetcar tunnels do it out of completely and utter ignorance. They don't know what there doing is wrong. None of them are driving into tunnel thinking that they can get away with it, and if they get caught, it's only a $100 fine.

I would have given these drivers the benefit of the doubt when there were just a few signs, and no rumble strips around the streetcar portal however now there are flashing lights and multiple signs which warn drivers. When you get so deep into a streetcar tunnel, I dont think we can call that ignorance anymore. It just stupidity plain and simple.

 

[KevinT]

Shouldn't all this be in the TTC Other Items thread?

 

[MetroMan]

Seriously, Bombardier’s word means absolutely nothing. Just a week ago, they revised their “promise” to 63 and would be “working over the holidays to honour our commitment”. What a load of BS. The TTC should have sent them to the curb and cancelled the contract, just out of principle.

Bombardier failed to meet revised target for streetcar delivery in 2017, TTC says
Montreal-based rail manufacturer had revised its goal to 63 streetcars. By the end of the year, only 57 had been delivered.

There’s absolutely no point whatsoever in making another schedule or promising anything. Bombardier’s credibility rivals that of Donald Trump.

Whoever takes over from Byford should immediately get on the phone with Siemens and place an order of 204 cars. Bombardier gets the 60 cars the TTC was considering as an add on to the original order. Even if we have to wait another year while Siemens designs a custom car for the TTC, it’d be worth the wait. Bombardier doesn’t deserve another penny.

 

[Voltz]

Seriously, Bombardier’s word means absolutely nothing. Just a week ago, they revised their “promise” to 63 and would be “working over the holidays to honour our commitment”. What a load of BS. The TTC should have sent them to the curb and cancelled the contract, just out of principle.

That would hardly be worth while, the cost would be staggering, and take much longer to order and receive streetcars from a another supplier than to just let Bombardier finish the order.

The next lowest bid was 50% higher, and they had to spend a few years designing and testing the prototypes before beginning production. How much money do you want to blow just for principle?

 

[MetroMan]

That would hardly be worth while, the cost would be staggering, and take much longer to order and receive streetcars from a another supplier than to just let Bombardier finish the order.

The next lowest bid was 50% higher, and they had to spend a few years designing and testing the prototypes before beginning production. How much money do you want to blow just for principle?

So when does the TTC get their 204+60 cars? In 2020? 2021? 2025? At what point do we stop trusting Bombardier’s repeatedly missed deadlines? If they can break a commitment they made just 10 days ago and miss it by 5 cars, how the heck are we supposed to believe they mean it when they say they'll deliver all 204 by 2019?

At some point, we have to cut our losses and work with a different manufacturer. Bombardier has completely blown their credibility. If the Province was able to switch their order, then they were able to get competitive prices. Metrolinx’s Siemens order has funded the construction of an Ontario plant which accounted for a portion of the higher price. The TTC will no longer need to break the ice. The Province already did that for us.

 

[drum118]

That would hardly be worth while, the cost would be staggering, and take much longer to order and receive streetcars from a another supplier than to just let Bombardier finish the order.

The next lowest bid was 50% higher, and they had to spend a few years designing and testing the prototypes before beginning production. How much money do you want to blow just for principle?

Since BBD is already in breach of contract, TTC can terminate the contract very easy and back charge BBD for all extra cost incurred to maintain a fleet that was supposed to be gone by now. At the same time, TTC can back charge BBD the extra cost to have the remaining cars built by X as well any other cost it incurred from the date of termination to full delivery of all original 204 cars contract for. TTC can go after any extra cost to buy the option 60 cars over BBD price. Contract law at work in favour of TTC in the end.

TTC needs to place another tender for not only the extra 60 cars BBD was supposed to supply, but the other cars it will need to beef up not only the current system, but the expansion that will be happening in the next 10 years ASP.

I already know Alstom can have a prototype car here within 2 years of signing of contract, but don't know how long it would be for any other suppliers, but no more than 3 years.

Depending on how I look at my past comments for cars being here by year end, I am on the money or 2 cars short for delivery.

The big question thats still remains unanswered, what is TTC going to do about the failure rate that is still 50% less than contracted for? There is an extra cost being incurred to keep the new fleet on the road with the current piss poor rating and who pickup that cost?? There was to be next to no cost for the fleet for the first 10 years, but there is now.

BBD needs to be shown the door even if we have to wait another 2-3 years for X suppliers cars to show up. You can only accept garbage for so long unit is stinks to high heaven.

Do we accept the current delivery numbers for 2018 as stated by BBD or do we decease that number by 15% now?? Depending on how you want to look at BBD deliveries for 2017 using the 4 numbers by them, they miss the target by 10% plus.

What every TTC does for future tenders, a stronger penalty clause needs to be in place from day one when the tender goes out and signing of contract.

4458 in testing on St Clair at my posting

 

[Voltz]

So when does the TTC get their 204+60 cars? In 2020? 2021? 2025? At what point do we stop trusting Bombardier’s repeatedly missed deadlines? If they can break a commitment they made just 10 days ago and miss it by 5 cars, how the heck are we supposed to believe they mean it when they say they'll deliver all 204 by 2019?

At some point, we have to cut our losses and work with a different manufacturer. Bombardier has completely blown their credibility. If the Province was able to switch their order, then they were able to get competitive prices. Metrolinx’s Siemens order has funded the construction of an Ontario plant which accounted for a portion of the higher price. The TTC will no longer need to break the ice. The Province already did that for us.

When Metrolinx reduced the Bombardier order the per unit cost increased by 20%, and they had to extend another contract to make up the rest of the difference. As well, they are paying $150 Million more by switching part of the order to Alstom than the original Bombardier order.

If the TTC were to cancel the Bombardier order now then it would be three years before production can get up and running with an alternative supplier, there can't be an argument made that we would be worse off with Bombardier missing their 2019 deadline by a year than having no deliveries for three years, and of course the TTC should go after them for damages caused by the delays.