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TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

steveintoronto

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From the article:
Brad Ross, spokesperson for the TTC, told CBC Toronto on Friday that the agency plans to move some of the cars from the 506 Carlton and 505 Dundas routes to more critical routes, such as 504 King. The TTC board will put the idea to the board in January, and if approved, it expects the plan to take effect starting in February.
That's both good and bad news. Good for King Street, as the project *must* succeed, and it's been hobbled in too many ways as it is by a penny-pinching Council that has no concept of thrift when building the unattainable and impractical, yet sends Johnny to school with no shoes in winter and then complains about the marks. (Council has yet to collectively comment on King, but it could yet go badly).

The 506, meantime, is jammed solid every time I've taken it (most days of the week around 4PM westbound from Spadina on my present project) for the last few months. If it takes buses to run the route for the sake of the King Korridor, by all means do it.
It doesn't matter - at the end of the day, BBD signed a contract
Exactly...a "contract". And it's not like the failing was a one-off, it's been time and time again. Unfortunately the penalty for missing the deadline(s) is capped. And BBD have already calculated that into their response.

How many times does abuse have to happen before the costs of leaving are less than staying?

Addendum: Just re-reading the National Pest link from my post two back. For those defending BBD against Metrolinx' concerns, and others dissing the P3 model being used in Crosstown and now many more Metrolinx projects (along with Infrastructure Ontario) note this: (And this can go wrong, the challenge, as with all agreements, is to do it right)
[...]
Back in Edmonton, Nicholson said the private-public structure of the Valley Line deal insulates the city from the kind of delays currently punishing Toronto transit riders. Edmonton has signed a 35-year deal for a consortium made up of Bombardier, Bechtel Corp., EllisDon Corp. and Fengate Capital Management Ltd. to design, build, operate and maintain the 13-kilometre line for 35 years.

“The beauty of the P3 model is that the other partners hold them accountable,” he said. “If it reaches a situation where they aren’t able to deliver, the city of Edmonton will be the least of Bombardier’s problems. The other partners could simply swap out a different train provider. We feel it will work out.”
[...]
http://business.financialpost.com/t...cars-on-time-has-ripple-effects-across-canada
 
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Andy_in_Toronto

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I saw 4456 running on Queen St. today. However, it was not in service!
 

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yrt+viva=1system

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I posted this in another thread but it this is broadly related to future rail vehicle manufacturing:
Alstom Canada spokeswoman Marilena Varano confirmed on Thursday that her firm will establish a manufacturing plant in Brampton, Ont to build future cars on the Sheppard East LRT and Finch West LRT projects in Toronto.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toron...lrt-cars-in-toronto-create-120-jobs-1.4460579

My comments from the other thread:
"It definitely does go beyond LRV manufacturing. After a few nice coffees, I've been pondering too at what this will mean for all future rail based vehicle procurement and manufacturing. Is this the sign that Metrolinx has broken the camel's back (Bombardier's monopoly in Ontario)? It brings up the question now of whether we'll see potential for Alstom vehicles on the TTC? Or the question of, will there be three (well two) manufacturers competing now, after all Alstom and Siemens did agree to a merger. This thought gives a lot of excitement of the potentials of future orders (especially for rail- enthusiasts); the beginning of seeing Alstom and Siemens vehicles/consists in Ontario/Canada."
 

drum118

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4456 and 4457 are tractable

From here on out, ALL P3 projects should allow bidders to supply their own suppliers of rolling stock and a 35 year maintenance contract.

TTC needs to open the doors to all bidders for rolling stock, regardless where and what plant is setup to meet TTC requirements to supply them. This also applies to other systems.
 

steveintoronto

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From here on out, ALL P3 projects should allow bidders to supply their own suppliers of rolling stock and a 35 year maintenance contract.
I believe this is already the case unless one of the members of the bidding consortium is bound to offering open tenders, like a government agency.

Vertically integrated supply of rolling stock is part of the value of consortiums bidding. The trend is towards consortiums with deep pockets (of at least one of the members) such that it eliminates the need for tendering out to get the cheapest deal. They're a member of the consortium because the other members agree their stock is the *best* deal, not necessarily the cheapest. The taxpayer is ostensibly protected by the consortium (or single company) that wins the P3 being responsible for supplying the agreed contract in the initial bid.
 
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drum118

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I believe this is already the case unless one of the members of the bidding consortium is bound to offering open tenders, like a government agency.

Vertically integrated supply of rolling stock is part of the value of consortiums bidding. The trend is towards consortiums with deep pockets (of at least one of the members) such that it eliminates the need for tendering out to get the cheapest deal. They're a member of the consortium because the other members agree their stock is the *best* deal, not necessarily the cheapest. The taxpayer is ostensibly protected by the consortium (or single company) that wins the P3 being responsible for supplying the agreed contract in the initial bid.
Thats the way it should work, not for Metrolinx projects, since Metrolinx has already order the cars for all New Lines. There has been P3 lines where rolling stock has been order ahead of a P3 tender by the buyer, but never heard of this issues with those orders.

The consortium for Edmonton LRT line will have to deal with BBD order if cars don't start showing up in July 2018 as plan so the line can open as plan,
 

steveintoronto

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Thats the way it should work, not for Metrolinx projects, since Metrolinx has already order the cars for all New Lines. There has been P3 lines where rolling stock has been order ahead of a P3 tender by the buyer, but never heard of this issues with those orders.

The consortium for Edmonton LRT line will have to deal with BBD order if cars don't start showing up in July 2018 as plan so the line can open as plan,
[...]
Back in Edmonton, Nicholson said the private-public structure of the Valley Line deal insulates the city from the kind of delays currently punishing Toronto transit riders. Edmonton has signed a 35-year deal for a consortium made up of Bombardier, Bechtel Corp., EllisDon Corp. and Fengate Capital Management Ltd. to design, build, operate and maintain the 13-kilometre line for 35 years.

“The beauty of the P3 model is that the other partners hold them accountable,” he said. “If it reaches a situation where they aren’t able to deliver, the city of Edmonton will be the least of Bombardier’s problems. The other partners could simply swap out a different train provider. We feel it will work out.”
http://business.financialpost.com/t...cars-on-time-has-ripple-effects-across-canada

Metrolinx' terms for the winning consortium bid may have been wanting. The problem isn't P3 in principle, but Metrolinx in implementation.

You can bet your bomber jacket that Metrolinx won't be issuing any contracts up for bid structured like this one again. Crosstown appeared to have learned a lot from others (like Crossrail), but they didn't learn enough. The massive mistakes of London Underground should have been warnings to heed, but alas.

The TTC has probably learned the same lesson, we'll see.
 
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drum118

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I am few hundred miles away and I am seeing the tracker saying 4457 is in service on 504 southbound from Broadview loop away at this time. 4456 was out for testing and in the service bay at this time.
 

drum118

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Its been reported 4458 was off loaded today after been dock Dec 24 at Hillcrest

4460 and 4461 are in transit. No idea where 4459 is. Another miss schedule by BBD
 

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