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rbt
Senior Member
It would not count for stimulus because it is so urgent. Stimulus cannot go toward projects which would have occurred anyway. This is one of the few rules that actually makes sense to me since otherwise it would just be transferring a budget from municipal to federal without actually doing any stimulating.
Jonny5
Senior Member
Ah thanks. Good to see that will get done, hopefully before any catastrophe happens.
It's too bad the sun didn't break this story. We could have had a great copycat headline.
"Baird to City: Drop Dead"
unimaginative2
Senior Member
The Gardiner west reconstruction seems like a pretty obvious stimulus project to me. It's been needed since Harris downloaded the highway, but the city hasn't been able to afford it. It's shovel ready since the plans have been around for years, and it would free the city from a $100 million+ liability, allowing them to spend it on transit or whatever other priority.
kEiThZ
Superstar
Yep, don't you know that stimulus is supposed to be spend in another district years after the recession is over?
The rules were there for a reason. It's ridiculous that Miller only submitted one barely or non-compliant application. That's playing politics plain and simple. I can see it now, the feds wills simply offer to pay one third of only those streetcars that will be delivered before the end of fiscal year 2011. What would Miller do then?
He could have put in various roadworks, upgraded public housing or community rec centres, or even put in for some of the work pertaining to Transit City or for current streetcar trackwork....all of that would have freed up money that could have gone towards buying streetcars. Instead he chose to make a political statement by trying to paint the feds into a car. And they wonder why nobody likes Toronto....
Seriously, could anyone see the Mayor of New York or the Mayor of London behaving like that?
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
Keithz:
Actually, I think that's what the Tories are counting on? Which explains the more or less onerous conditions placed on the stimulus funds?
Rules are there for several reasons - some stated, others aren't. As to playing politics - well, it's it about time that he does so, considering the record of the feds and the provinces. It's been nothing but a political game.
And without any media attention, what do you think of the possiblity that ALL proposals will be dismissed because they are from Toronto? Quite frankly, you should be asking why playing nice didn't work in the first place.
Since you wanted to draw comparisons, perhaps it will be helpful to bring into the picture intergovernmental relationships and funding authority of those forementioned jurisdictions?
AoD
Actually, I think that's what the Tories are counting on? Which explains the more or less onerous conditions placed on the stimulus funds?
Rules are there for several reasons - some stated, others aren't. As to playing politics - well, it's it about time that he does so, considering the record of the feds and the provinces. It's been nothing but a political game.
And without any media attention, what do you think of the possiblity that ALL proposals will be dismissed because they are from Toronto? Quite frankly, you should be asking why playing nice didn't work in the first place.
Since you wanted to draw comparisons, perhaps it will be helpful to bring into the picture intergovernmental relationships and funding authority of those forementioned jurisdictions?
AoD
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kEiThZ
Superstar
^ Hey I am not denying the validity of his press for more federal funding and more federal involvement in urban transit....what I am decrying is his specific effort at playing footsie with this one tab. Yes, the Conservatives aren't in love with Toronto. Doesn't that mean that Miller should play a little smarter? He's making it easy for the feds to say, 'Nope. Didn't meet the criteria. Next.' At least if they were striking down projects that fit their own criteria, there would be a case to be made that the Conservatives were singling out Toronto for punishment. As it stands, if this falls through Miller has nobody to blame but himself.
And it's not just the federal Conservatives, how is it that the Provincial Liberals seem to have been similarly caught off-guard?
And it's not just the federal Conservatives, how is it that the Provincial Liberals seem to have been similarly caught off-guard?
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
Keithz:
And just would "smarter" entail, exactly? This is fundametally a political game - you seem to believe that doing things by the book will somehow net you the money by default - when reality suggests that it is just as easy for the feds to dismiss all funding requests from the city even if they meet the requirement, for reasons of political expediency (or general hate-on). Look at how easy it would be for them to say no now.
And I wouldn't be surprised at all if it put them on the hot seat and make them deliver.
AoD
And just would "smarter" entail, exactly? This is fundametally a political game - you seem to believe that doing things by the book will somehow net you the money by default - when reality suggests that it is just as easy for the feds to dismiss all funding requests from the city even if they meet the requirement, for reasons of political expediency (or general hate-on). Look at how easy it would be for them to say no now.
And I wouldn't be surprised at all if it put them on the hot seat and make them deliver.
AoD
rbt
Senior Member
Frankly, if that was the deal, I would expect TTC to require delivery by that date at any cost then send the feds the bill.
Delivery rate is actually limited by the TTCs mechanics to certify the vehicles for use. However, if the yard was built there is no reason that we couldn't take delivery of the vehicles and certify them a few years later when time permits.
The factory floor can run 4 shifts (3 shifts per day, 7 days a week) to crank them all out by 2011, probably for double the original contract price.
Yes. They frequently play very strong armed politics with senior governments. In fact, Miller is still being pretty tame by comparison. Livingstone used to stick his nose into all kinds of things that weren't his business as mayor and played very strong political games.
Daley has done far more interesting things.
Frankly, Miller is just starting to exercise the power given to the city by amalgamation; and in my opinion we have far more reach than what is being demonstrated today. 4 or 5 elections down the road, this behaviour will be the minimum that we demand from our mayor.
In the last election, Miller had about 1/4 the vote count as Bloc Quebecois; with more competitors and fewer potential voters. Do you think he is exercising 1/4 of the power as Bloc is, because if he can hold our interest then he should be able to.
Toronto is moving toward a strong mayor system. That means the mayor is strong both within council and as a single voice when negotiating with other organizations as there is a single negotiator rather than 40+.
Hank
Active Member
If Miller had asked for a billion dollars for the streetcars (or whatever the number is) AND, say, $300 million for roadwork, he probably would have got the roadwork money but not the streetcar money.
By asking for only one thing, though, he hade it hard for the feds to turn him down - do you really think they'll leave the biggest city in the country out of the stimulus money? Sure the feds hate Toronto and sure the bid may not have been compliant, but your average Toronto voter will only remember that we didn't get any money when everyone else did. As much as they may hate us, I don't think the feds want that.
Miller clearly thought he could get more money this way than any other way, leaving more of Toronto's actual money to be spent on the roadwork and whatever else needs fixing. It may or may not work, but it's not totally illogical.
By asking for only one thing, though, he hade it hard for the feds to turn him down - do you really think they'll leave the biggest city in the country out of the stimulus money? Sure the feds hate Toronto and sure the bid may not have been compliant, but your average Toronto voter will only remember that we didn't get any money when everyone else did. As much as they may hate us, I don't think the feds want that.
Miller clearly thought he could get more money this way than any other way, leaving more of Toronto's actual money to be spent on the roadwork and whatever else needs fixing. It may or may not work, but it's not totally illogical.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
In fact, I think Baird's expletive caught on tape is probably the best thing that had happened to the city.
AoD
AoD
kEiThZ
Superstar
Well I hope for Toronto's sake you're all right. I don't want to see the streetcar renewal fall through because Miller decide to gamble with our share of the stimulus money.
unimaginative2
Senior Member
Don't count on Harper backing down. He's made it clear that electoral calculations drive all of his decisions, and whether he gives $1 billion in stimulus money or nothing to Toronto, he isn't likely to win a seat in the 416. Sticking it to Toronto may move a couple votes his way in rural and suburban swing seats.
officedweller
Senior Member
Guess this is the second time that the streetcar order has been caught up in non-compliant bids/applications, isn't it?
The first time TTC took the hard line against non-compliant bids from streetcar manufacturers, now it wants to ignore bid requirements when it suits its purposes.
Guess that's a calculated risk - all eggs in one non-compliant basket.
The first time TTC took the hard line against non-compliant bids from streetcar manufacturers, now it wants to ignore bid requirements when it suits its purposes.
Guess that's a calculated risk - all eggs in one non-compliant basket.
Ansem
Banned
Not a good idea to lose the vote of Thunder bay and it's surroundings.
The new Streetcars and Transit city lines are supposed to go to the suburbs.
Anything that could delay that could be harmful to the Conservative in the suburbs
Many workers from there use the TTC network and will use either Transit City or the downtown streetcar network.
Not smart to make those workers transit experience more miserable than its already is.
It's my opinion.
People told me a lot that there are no borders in terms of transit when we were debating the York subway extension.
It goes both ways. Punishing Torobnto will have consequence on the suburbs as well since they almost all end up using the TTC anyways...