TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

[DSC]

That was a 1984 Wendy's commercial - it was also made famous in a debate between two Democratic candidates that year, ahead of that year's election campaign between Ronald Reagan and Walter Mondale.

 

[White Pine]

I was pretty sure Bombardier wouldn't be able to make 7 cars in a month... At least the output has picked up as a result of the last target. I don't remember getting 20+ cars in a year before. I realize that this would take 10 years of the whole thing to be done, but at least they're arriving a little more reliably this year. Still, compared to the original schedule... it's pretty bad. but we'll get there. At this point I think the TTC should get the 60 extra cars and get as much value/free stuff as they can from this situation.

EDIT: BBD should churn the ION cars out as fast as humanly possible, if they haven't moved on by next spring I bet Metrolinx and Edmonton will be breathing down their necks in a split second lol

 

[Robert James]

I made a mistake in ascribing the "where's the beef?" quotation to George Bush. It was in fact Walter mondale who said it during a 1984 primary debate. I guess the old memory is playing tricks on me. Thanks to Shon Tron for pointing it out.

 

[books]

problem is, that if they did do everything here, they would not be able to undercut the rest of the competition by that great of a margin when they got the deal. they took a huge risk and they lost out big time

No, Bombardier took the risk and Toronto lost out big time. Socialize the risk and privatize the profit is the name of the game.

 

[books]

This is a performance level by Bombardier that we have grown to expect. At its core, it represents a corporation's attempt to maximize its profitability through the globalization of its production. There will be some who will claim that it is doing so to remain competitive with other global players in the industry. But what is also clear, is this gambit has been most costly to Canadian manufacturing, the expertise that underpinned the quality of its production, and its experienced and talented workers who have been asked to bear the brunt of this transition from a more national base of production to a global one.

From an idealistic perspective, i can see the virtue in the spreading the benefits of industrialization throughout the world, especially in regions in dire need of economic development, but under the assumption that along with the globalization of production would have been the transfer of equitable labour costs, similar levels of taxation so as to sustain these emerging economies in reaching production cost similar to the economies from which they were spawn.

But in a more realistic perspective, corporations have globalized to promote its profitability on backs of a national workforce who had established certain benchmarks in compensation and benefits. Globalization would relieve companies such as Bombardier from carrying first world labour costs, and being able to substitute these with more profitable venues to be found in emerging economies with a much lesser cost of labour and taxation, hiring a less educated and experienced workforce, as result a less stable and productive one, while still being able to do business and profit from contracts derived in Canadian localities such as the TTC.

There are the practical challenges experienced in the production of new system that come to weigh in Bombardier's inability to keep to promised levels of delivery, but these pale in comparison to its overall agenda to escape its obligation to fairly pay its workforce and taxes, and which impinges on its ability to fabricate its streetcars in timely manner from within its global network.

We are left with making the most of a difficult situation, in the name of a corporate hubris built on the alter of maximizing profit at all cost.

During a Democratic debate in 1984, Walter Mondale quotes an ad where senior citizens in a local hamburger chain are shown saying, "Where 's the beef?" It would seem appropriate to ask a similar query in regards to Bombardier.

Hear, hear!

Well put and I second this comment!

 

[drum118]

I been away and off line most of this past week and not up to date about 4446. As it stands as far as I know, 4446 enter service today on 512 for the first time.

If 4447 arrived this past Wed that is now tracking, based on 4445 & 4446 in service of 16 days, it should enter service on or about Oct 27. Then it could be Oct 21-22.

As for not seeing 70 cars this year, it no surprised to me since I never thought they wouldn't meet that schedule based on BBD track record since 2012. This means the 60th car could be a Dec car, not the Nov as plan.

Based on this mess, I am sure TTC will really look closely to the results of RFI once it close to the point of seeing an RFP being issue in 2018 for 60 cars with options up to another 40 or so in various batches as needed. They should look at going to a 35-40 m car that are duel ends.

With all the coverage over this mess, BBD can write off NA as a market for any future orders. What is odd in a way is Wien is getting their new fleet as schedule for 119 34 m Flexity Outlooks and an option for 37 more. Order was given in 2015 with first batch in service for 2018 and final delivery by 2026. BBD replace Siemens who supply the first batch of lowfloor cars for Wien and I have ridden them. There is a video of them up on my youtube site.
First Flexity Wien tram nearing completion

 

[TransOp]

I been away and off line most of this past week and not up to date about 4446. As it stands as far as I know, 4446 enter service today on 512 for the first time.

If 4447 arrived this past Wed that is now tracking, based on 4445 & 4446 in service of 16 days, it should enter service on or about Oct 27. Then it could be Oct 21-22.

As for not seeing 70 cars this year, it no surprised to me since I never thought they wouldn't meet that schedule based on BBD track record since 2012. This means the 60th car could be a Dec car, not the Nov as plan.

Based on this mess, I am sure TTC will really look closely to the results of RFI once it close to the point of seeing an RFP being issue in 2018 for 60 cars with options up to another 40 or so in various batches as needed. They should look at going to a 35-40 m car that are duel ends.

With all the coverage over this mess, BBD can write off NA as a market for any future orders. What is odd in a way is Wien is getting their new fleet as schedule for 119 34 m Flexity Outlooks and an option for 37 more. Order was given in 2015 with first batch in service for 2018 and final delivery by 2026. BBD replace Siemens who supply the first batch of lowfloor cars for Wien and I have ridden them. There is a video of them up on my youtube site.
First Flexity Wien tram nearing completion

Double-ended cars would not be compatible with today's legacy network. A lot of costly and impractical changes would have to be made to the system to accommodate such cars.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Double-ended cars would not be compatible with today's legacy network. A lot of costly and impractical changes would have to be made to the system to accommodate such cars.

Double-ended cars could still use the loops. However, with crossover tracks, short turns would be easier to do (except for the oncoming traffic, fine with right-of-ways).

Don't know why the TTC doesn't use temporary crossovers to allow track work on half the streetcar tracks. (Other than TTC budget cuts.)

 

[dowlingm]

Double-ended cars would not be compatible with today's legacy network. A lot of costly and impractical changes would have to be made to the system to accommodate such cars.

There are downsides to DE cars such as less seating and more non revenue space due to second cab, but nothing on the network would have to be changed. It would simply make additions to the existing network possible such as on-street turnbacks rather than requiring loops at all terminals.

 

[steveintoronto]

There's always the option of single-ended cars paired back-to-back to minimize seating loss and cost of duplicated controls, and then couple the pairs into 2/4/6/ car lengths when needed. In the case of 'tram-trains' using mainline track (not possible with TTC stock due to track gauge) this makes for a very flexible use of existing rail lines that would otherwise be underutilized and wasted. In the case of a number of cities (Karlsruhe model - Wikipedia ) it allows intermixing both mainline passenger and street-running passenger service.

Note the refurbished PCC in the video at 1:15. How can it operate single ended with no reverse coupled partner? It operates around the loop formed from the three major lines intersecting in downtown SD:

[...]
Rolling Stock
All PCC cars operating on the Silver Line are Post-War St. Louis Car Company "all-electric" units.

The Silver Line began service in August 2011 with one operational heritage 1946 Presidents Conference Committee (PCC) streetcar, Car #529.[6][9]

In March 2014, MTS took possession of a second 1946 Presidents Conference Committee (PCC) streetcar, destined to join the Silver Line fleet as Car #530.[13][14] Restoration work on this trolley car took one year, and Car #530 entered service on the Silver Line on March 2, 2015.[5]

Car #531, a former SEPTA PCC manufactured in 1948, has been funded for and is currently undergoing restoration at the MTS PCC shop. This car is expected to enter service sometime in the next couple of years.

All cars have had pantograph current collection equipment added to them, as the overhead contact system that MTS operates is not compatible with trolley poles. The cars on the Silver Line retain their trolley poles, however, for visual effect. [...]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_Line_(San_Diego_Trolley)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_Line_(San_Diego_Trolley)

https://www.sdmts.com/schedules-real-time-vintage-trolley/restoration

 

[Allandale25]

"4446 entered service on route 510. #FlexityTracker #TTC"

"4447 is now trackable. #FlexityTracker #TTC"

- via @FlexityTracker

 

[drum118]

"4446 entered service on route 510. #FlexityTracker #TTC"

"4447 is now trackable. #FlexityTracker #TTC"

- via @FlexityTracker

You are a days late as noted above in 11071.

4447 is burning up the track and will be in service this week if no issues surface. It is currently at Ronc yard, but was up on St Clair when I first looked today.

No idea where 4448 is, but someone said it arrived a day after 4447 did. If so, not tracking at this time.

Going to duel end cars mean a lost of seats, but better get use to it, as systems are removing seats to get more riders on a vehicles and it doesn't matter what type of vehicle it is for public transit.

What is more important having a car that can go the opposite direction and service the line or have them all bunch up with no one getting service at all if a problem surface on the line??

Having cars mu together is only good if the cars are shorter or on lines where you can get away with longer units.

There is no reason why duel end cars can't work on TTC system, other than no crossings at this time and no money to do it. As noted above, many systems in Europe use both types of cars at the same time and have no issues doing so. Been on them.

As I have stated in the past, having stub track is far cheaper than loops as well cutting down on squealing doing the loop even with the new cars. You can run a line to X and not worry about find land or a route to turn a single end car. More pro than con doing it.

 

[smallspy]

As I have stated in the past, having stub track is far cheaper than loops as well cutting down on squealing doing the loop even with the new cars. You can run a line to X and not worry about find land or a route to turn a single end car. More pro than con doing it.

Stub end terminals are cheaper, yes. But they are also slower, and don't allow for as tight a headway as loops do.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[Allandale25]

You are a days [sic] late as noted above in 11071.

Can you relax with your snarky tone? I didn't claim that I was trying to win the competition by posting any information first. Clearly that's important to you, so good for you. I was merely posting what a Twitter account posted today.

Also, you said "If 4447 arrived this past Wed that is now tracking". What I posted from the Twitter account indicates the present condition instead of "if". You said 4446 entered service yesterday on the 512 and the Twitter account said it entered service today on the 510. I'll let members following this thread make their own judgement.

 

[White Pine]

I been away and off line most of this past week and not up to date about 4446. As it stands as far as I know, 4446 enter service today on 512 for the first time.

If 4447 arrived this past Wed that is now tracking, based on 4445 & 4446 in service of 16 days, it should enter service on or about Oct 27. Then it could be Oct 21-22.

As for not seeing 70 cars this year, it no surprised
to me since I never thought they wouldn't meet that schedule based on BBD track record since 2012. This means the 60th car could be a Dec car, not the Nov as plan.

Based on this mess, I am sure TTC will really look closely to the results of RFI once it close to
the point of seeing an RFP being issue in 2018
for 60 cars with options up to another 40 or so in various batches as needed. They should look at going to a 35-40 m car that are duel ends.

With all the coverage over this mess, BBD can write off NA as a market for any future orders.
What is odd in a way is Wien is getting their new fleet as schedule for 119 34 m Flexity Outlooks and an option for 37 more. Order was given in 2015 with first batch in service for 2018 and final delivery by 2026. BBD replace Siemens who
supply the first batch of lowfloor cars for Wien and I have ridden them. There is a video of them
up on my youtube site.
First Flexity Wien tram nearing completion

Even though I'm a bombardier fan, I have to admit that I never thought we'd get 70 cars
either. In fact, I don't even think we'll get 65. Based on this year my guess is 55. Has 4449 come yet?

I've ridden on the Vienna ones too. Those new BBD ones look kind of skinny.