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Kitsune
Senior Member
I saw 4404 in revenue service westbound along King @ york this morning, signed as 510 - Spadina. It seems they are using the Leslie barns to provide a tiny bit more capacity to King. I did see TTC personnel on the streetcar too.
nfitz
Superstar
It would have been running along Queen East from Leslie to Spadina to enter service. I watched several running along Queen on Nextbus at around that time. And apparently they are taking passengers when they do this, just like the CLRVs do.
D
Duck
Guest
How so? How does this delay directly affect you? Because you aren't seeing the anticipated higher level of TTC service? This is what I don't get. Things will go from as-is to better with the new streetcars. Had they not bought them in the first place you'd never know the difference.
So, unless you're a hardcore rail hardware enthusiast (like me) who is just disappointed that he doesn't get to see as many cool trains, I truly and honestly can't understand why you have so much hate. It just seems so childish and unproductive.
Just answer me this: Do you like the new streetcars?
muller877
Senior Member
I personally am ambivalent to the delay and now leaning towards its a good thing.
- if we have been able to keep the old ones running this long without a noticeable change in the maintenance budget (per TTC's annual budget) then the TTC asked for delivery too early/fast (the parts on the ones discarded can be used to maintain the ones still in operation)
- we are keeping borrowing down for a couple of more years
- we are now buying streetcars based on a 5 year old prices and we can keep them for 5 more years at the end of their life (delaying the next capital spend when the new LRT cars have to be replaced)
Just like an old clunker of a car. Keep it running until you are told you have to spend a lot on repairs...and then replace it. And think of the ones discarded as a stock of used parts that will keep the rest running.
crs1026
Superstar
That's good logic, but you have to know the comparative operating costs, actual failure rates, and how much your added maintenace is costing you, as well as the true cost of your capital. You can't put your construction on hold so your new barns are already making payments. Everything I have read suggests that had TTC received its cars on time, they could have reduced car-miles and labour costs (fewer cars on the road for same number of riders) and their parts inventory is problemmatic.
Some of the irritation is admittedly because we are dealing with a world-class vendor here and their shirt tails are clearly hanging out. If we were dealing with the "owner and son" garage on the corner, we might accept some foibles (actually, my clunker gets serviced in a backstreets place off Kipling because the brand-name dealer is inept and overpriced, but you get the point). But yes, I bet the TTC's spreadsheet is compelling - the old cars should be gone by now.
- Paul
robmausser
Senior Member
Sorry, wrong.
I'll be understanding because you don't live in Toronto so you don't know.
It's worse than higher levels of service, they are decommissioning all the current streetcars at the same rate, save for 18 ALRV's. They have to do this because they don't have the budget to keep the CLRV's in service. It was not the plan and they all require expensive custom parts. The TTC actually has hired some Blacksmiths to create the parts in house.
So, we now have less streetcars currently than we did before. Service levels are WORSE than they've ever been. They have already started to run buses on King and Queen streets. Streetcars are packed beyond belief.
I usually have to wait for the 3rd streetcar on Queen before I can cram on, and they come only ever 3-8 minutes in frequency now because we are short streetcars.
It takes me on average 30 minutes longer to get home and get to work now.
That's how it directly affects me.
ehlow
Senior Member
510 is insanely packed during rush, and long line ups at stations to get on.
The new streetcars are a huge improvement, the multi-door low floor boarding means a huge amount of people get on quickly.
The new streetcars are a huge improvement, the multi-door low floor boarding means a huge amount of people get on quickly.
smallspy
Senior Member
That's a bit unfair. Blacksmiths have been on staff for many, many - they predate the purchase of the CLRVs, although they seem to be primarily being used to keep them running right now. The number of retirements of the streetcars is still in the single digits thus far, so in terms of actual numbers, we've got more streetcars available for service (theoretically) than any time since the retirement of the PCCs in 1995. Of course, that doesn't take into account the fact that the 30+ year old vehicles are simply long-in-the-tooth, and not nearly as reliable as they were even 10 years ago.
As for service levels and the buses, that is partially due to the lack of reliability of the vehicles, but also due to the pent-up demand for more streetcar service. There's a reason why the ALRVs on Queen are going to get replaced better than one-for-one with the Flexities - because the TTC is that far behind on service improvements.
Just think - one of the things that the TTC wanted as part of the opening of the Spadina LRT/510 was a small fleet of low-floor streetcars. That obviously got nixed, but you can't help but think that we'd be in a far better position now had they been ordered and delivered.
Dan
Toronto, Ont.
dowlingm
Senior Member
At least the damn things work. If they were Ansaldo Bredas there's a good chance they would be late AND never work.
D
Duck
Guest
Thanks for the replies - very informative. It still really sounds to me like this is not 100% Bombardier's fault. It's a bit of a mistake on everyone's part not to pull the trigger a little earlier on ordering new trains.
dowlingm
Senior Member
Would be interesting to see if 3D printing makes even small inroads into the sort of work the smiths do. I don't know if 3D printing can make materials that are strong enough to do anything on a legacy car that a smith would currently make. Given that the UTDC cars in Sacramento are making a comeback after a Siemens rebuild, maybe TTC and Sacramento could come up with some shared templates
D
Duck
Guest
How so? The Andaldo Breda's I rode on the Copenhagen minimetro were flawless.
dowlingm
Senior Member
The craptastic V250 trains in Holland were probably the most high profile example but there have been others:
http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/03/26/ansaldobreda-problems-arent-in-los-angeles-alone/
Midlands Metro (UK West Midlands) replaced their entire T-69 fleet with CAF trams. They are nominally in storage for future use in extensions. We'll see.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midland_Metro_rolling_stock
Here's another case in Gothenburg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sirio#Gothenburg
Catenary
Active Member
And let's not forget San Francisco MUNI:
http://sf.streetsblog.org/2013/09/1...eet-breda-disqualified-from-another-contract/
It will be interesting to see how they do under Hitachi.