Admiral Beez
Superstar
Reminds me of the pics of Toronto before the subway, when we had tandem-streetcars blocking up the roads.That thing is bound to give some drivers a heart attack. Good luck driving around that thing. I love it
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salsa
Senior Member
Tulse
Senior Member
Are "alternative suppliers" at all a realistic option? Or is that just posturing?
georgevicbell
Active Member
No way to find out except asking...
D
Duck
Guest
I can't help but think the timing on this is linked perfectly with the Quebec bailout announcement, as if the TTC is like "No no, now we can sue and get cash because Quebec is paying them money - lets get in on some of that!" and bleed the company dry in the process.
nfitz
Superstar
When staff wrote the recommendations back in August, and Byford announced a couple of weeks ago that this would go to the Board today, how did they all know about today's Bombardier bailout? I have trouble buying that they are that connected.I can't help but think the timing on this is linked perfectly with the Quebec bailout announcement, as if the TTC is like "No no, now we can sue and get cash because Quebec is paying them money - lets get in on some of that!" and bleed the company dry in the process.
This is good news, if they are willing to take additional streetcars as compensation, this brings us substantially towards the extra 60. It set's the stage for them getting the entire 60, as part of a deal.
Recall that the 60 streetcars required a $53 million upfront deposit, and further payments in 2019 and 2020. It was the $53 million upfront that wasn't in the budget.
If TTC can get this out of the 2016 cashflow and nothing is paid until 2019 and 2020, then I wonder if there is a possibility the entire 60 extra cars might happen.
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Duck
Guest
Point number 7 is 100% "...I'm telling moooooommmmmmmm!!"
I still personally don't think the TTC is entitled to all this. This isn't like calling up Rogers and complaining and getting an extra free month of cable TV. If the TTC pulls this shit, this could sink the biggest transportation manufacturer in the world. Is Andy Byford prepared to have that blood on his hands? Over a few months of extra waiting on the world's biggest tram procurement order?
I still personally don't think the TTC is entitled to all this. This isn't like calling up Rogers and complaining and getting an extra free month of cable TV. If the TTC pulls this shit, this could sink the biggest transportation manufacturer in the world. Is Andy Byford prepared to have that blood on his hands? Over a few months of extra waiting on the world's biggest tram procurement order?
smallspy
Senior Member
You think that the TTC suing Bombardier is going to sink them? That's more than just a bit silly.
Their worldwide revenues last year were north of $20 billion. This is a big order for them, no doubt, but it certainly wouldn't have broken the company if they didn't get it either.
Dan
Toronto, Ont.
Point #6 I think is the key point of this motion. "Instead of money, we'll accept additional streetcars as payment".
nfitz
Superstar
Ontario paid 1/3. Surely they should be telling Ontario.
The contract says they can claim up to $50 million. If Bombardier didn't want that, they shouldn't have written it in the contract with dates.
And presumably they can claim additional damages for Bombardier's false promises of unrealistic delivery dates, even continuing through 2 weeks ago.
Not sure why you'd think that ten's of million would be enough to sink a company with an annual revenue of of about $19 billion during the last 4 quarters. $50 million is like a $150 fine for someone earning $57,000. Enough to get their attention, but hardly going to sink anyone.
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Duck
Guest
Ok, thanks that's comforting to know. Bombardier is my favourite company so it pisses me off when the TTC is always ragging on them.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
And why shoud the people of Toronto have to pay for Bombardier's incredible incompetence? I hope the TTC recovers every dime this nonsense has cost us.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Any estimates on how much damages the TTC will seek?
nfitz
Superstar
If they'd got their act together, and TTC was still ragging, but fine.
But month after month Bombardier says they've fixed their problems, and month after month, they delay delivery by about a month.
Then in August, they swore that they had now ramped up to full production, being able to turn out a new streetcar every 5 days (presumably business days). Following whichm they took 45 days to deliver one vehicle.
And then, they just 2 weeks ago said they'd only deliver 19 by year-end (with 16 in service). Which means with 9 vehicles left to deliver, that's about 1 a week. In which case, by now, we should already have seen 4013 shipped from Thunder Bay.
This is beyond gross incompetence. The continuing claims that they have now fixed it all, are fraudulent.
TTC should be going for every penny that they should. They do this with local construction contractors. Why should they treat an international corporation with much experience in building streetcars any differently.