TheTigerMaster
Superstar
I can't believe it's been more than two years and we only have 8. Ridiculous
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I can't believe it's been more than two years and we only have 8. Ridiculous
Megaton327
Senior Member
I see the same--I'm going to assume the CLRV-only listing on pg12 is in error and somebody simply forgot to add LFsc in there. Someone accidentally forgetting to change pg 12 'all services' is much more likely than someone mistakenly changing pg 4 'streetcar services' to add LFsc to the 511. Additionally if you look at the TTC's service changes page there is a notice for the 511 for the Pan-Am games that says "Service will be provided by both the new low-floor streetcars and the older high-floor streetcars" http://www.ttc.ca/Service_Advisories/Service_changes/panam511.jsp so it seems pretty safe to say the pg 12 CLRV-only listing is a simple error.
nfitz
Superstar
There are certainly problems, but it's only about 13 months since the first car (4403) was delivered, and less since it was accepted by TTC.
Also, we only have 7, not 8. The 8th vehicle is the prototype that's going to be shipped back to Thunder Bay later this year for completion, and can't be used in revenue service.
Incidentally 6 of the 7 are in use today (5 on Spadina). Car 4404 is presumably still undergoing repairs after it was hit.
pstogios
Senior Member
As soon as people started voicing concern about the disgraceful number of new streetcars we have, I knew we could count on nfitz with a contrarian view and acceptance of mediocrity. As I read the messages I knew he would be back to reassure us it is not so bad.
The problem is, it IS bad.
It's an absolute disgrace, an absolute farce, an embarrassment that we only have 8 cars. We CANNOT and SHOULD NOT accept this. We cannot explain this away by saying "there are certainly problems" and then sit back and twiddle our thumbs while Bombardier feeds us bold-face lies and commitments to new schedules after having done so 3 times before and completely missed their targets.
Where is the accountability?
I remember being at the unveiling ceremony when the first two new streetcars were introduced at Spadina Station. It was exhilirating. Little did I know we would only have 6 more, a whole 23 months later. Wow--if I knew then what I know now, I wouldn't have been as excited.
EastYorkTTCFan
Senior Member
so is the TTC supposed to cancel the order from Bombardier and go to some else which means we have to wait for however long it takes for them to start up a production line or them?
CodeMonkey
Active Member
That would be one option. If Bombardier is delinquent in their contract, the city could sue, fine or walk away. However, seeing the province pushed the city to go with Bombardier so they can show job creation in Thunder Bay, they might have some protection in the contract that if anything went wrong they couldn't be sued as protection.
pstogios
Senior Member
I have no idea what the TTC should do because I don't know the contract and what options we have.
But it is clear, we are long past the time to stop making excuses for Bombardier.
EastYorkTTCFan
Senior Member
I really don't think that's going to happen unless they don't deliver by the end of the year. I don't see how the city or TTC could win a lawsuit over this Bombardier hasn't really done anything. The strike was not their fault they couldn't predict how long it would take. The rest was either because of design changes by the TTC or parts problems that could happen to any company.
EastYorkTTCFan
Senior Member
I don't think anyone is making excuses. There were problems and both sides have acknowledged them and are willing to work through them.
CodeMonkey
Active Member
Even if they could sue, I agree with you they probably wouldn't go down that route since we still need Bombardier for subway parts, so I doubt they would want to have an unhappy relationship. The Toronto Star noted that the strike added to the delay. But bad paint job, improper construction and a miscommunication with their Mexico plant added more delays. Apparently it was so badly put together, the TTC worried it could break apart on bumpy roads.
TOareaFan
Superstar
I don't see any acceptance of mediocrity in his post....what I see is a statement of the actual facts....facts that include at least one that is more negative than the op on the subject.
If, in your world, facts = contrarian view then I think you will disagree with a lot of stuff posted here.
pstogios
Senior Member
Yes he presented facts. He also presented an interpretation of the facts by saying it has "only" been 13 months since 4403 was delivered. And also by saying "there are certainly problems, but".
Using the words "only" and "but" are akin to saying that a mediocre delivery rate of 6 cars in 13 months is acceptable.
It is not.
Just ask Andy Byford.
TOareaFan
Superstar
I should probably let him speak for himself but when I read it I took "only been 13 months" as a correction of someone else's mistatement that it had been 2 years since the first delivery.....but I could be wrong
nfitz
Superstar
Hang on. I didn't say it's acceptable. It's not acceptable, and Bombardier needs to fire more people.
However, that doesn't mean it's okay to tell mistruths.
pstogios
Senior Member
I'm glad you feel people should feel the heat for Bombardier's incompetence.
You'll forgive me if I detect slightly more to your explanations about Bombardier's incompetence than mere communication of fact. Could be an over-interpretation of your words but I've noticed you're quick to point out the situation isn't as dire as it is in reality. Because it really is dire.