TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

[nfitz]

that's sand actually

 

[aquateam]

According to the gang on the Liberty Village Facebook group, the 504 buses have performed better than the streetcars along the same route.

That's possible. According to steve munro: "People tend to associate bus replacements of streetcars with better service during major diversions for track or road work because the TTC generally runs much more frequent bus service (and doesn’t generally short turn any of it) for the bus shuttles than they do for the streetcar service it replaces. A recent example is the long-term operation of buses in place of streetcars on 509 Harbourfront."

They accelerate better because of rubber tires.

Traction is worse than steel on steel if there's any kind of inclement weather.

that too
and oyea, no breakdowns (generally)below -10C

The breakdowns in the streetcars are from a design flaw with the pneumatic breaks. Moisture in the air gets in and freezes. This shouldn't be an issue with the new streetcars, which use hydraulics instead of pneumatics and sand bags. In principle, the streetcars (being electric) should be more reliable than buses, but given that the streetcars are 40 years old and the buses are 10 it's difficult to make a fair comparison.

Nah, as Nfitz mentioned, they do stop less than the streetcar. They also do pass streetcars quite frequently. It's not a matter of seeming faster, because they actually are faster.

Matt Elliott did some data crunching. The streetcars on average are slower than buses, but that's because they're downtown. Comparing streetcar routes to downtown bus routes shows that streetcars are faster. The logic is that buses have to pull out of traffic and have cars let them back into traffic again, whereas streetcars just make the cars behind them wait. This is part of why they are popular with transit users but not so much with automobilists.

 

[robmausser]

Traction is worse than steel on steel if there's any kind of inclement weather.

You dont say?

 

[innsertnamehere]

So spadina will convert to buses for roughly 40 days starting March 30th so that the TTC can replace the trackage at college and spadina. I wonder if the TTC will use it as an excuse to park the 5 new streetcars it will have by then, or if it will move them to Bathurst.

 

[drum118]

So spadina will convert to buses for roughly 40 days starting March 30th so that the TTC can replace the trackage at college and spadina. I wonder if the TTC will use it as an excuse to park the 5 new streetcars it will have by then, or if it will move them to Bathurst.

Going to 509 and 511.

I expect to see all but 2 cars move to 511 during the Pan Am Games.

We may see 7 more cars by then. 2 of those may make their way to 509.

With the cars going to 511, what has TTC done for TVM on Bathurst St at this time?? Less than haft of 509 have TVM now and will become POP March 30.

 

[robmausser]

Going to 509 and 511.

I expect to see all but 2 cars move to 511 during the Pan Am Games.

We may see 7 more cars by then. 2 of those may make their way to 509.

With the cars going to 511, what has TTC done for TVM on Bathurst St at this time?? Less than haft of 509 have TVM now and will become POP March 30.

Why 511 for Pan Am?

 

[44 North]

I'd like all the new streetcars to go to the 504. Broadview -> across the core via King -> then up to Dundas West...the route's like a DRL-lite.

 

[nfitz]

Why 511 for Pan Am?

Because it and 509 are the two streetcar routes that are part of the Pan Am Games transportation plan. Though I'm not sure why Drum expects they'd favour 511 over 509; I'd expect the opposite actually.

 

[the lemur]

Because it and 509 are the two streetcar routes that are part of the Pan Am Games transportation plan. Though I'm not sure why Drum expects they'd favour 511 over 509; I'd expect the opposite actually.

Maybe more venues at the Exhibition end of the 511 than along the 509 route? The latter has just the 'Pan Am Ceremonies Venue' (a/k/a the dome), whereas there are half a dozen venues on the Ex grounds: beach volleyball, coliseum, Pan Am Park, Exhibition Stadium, Exhibition Centre and Ontario Place (channel near the west island).

 

[Megaton327]

Going to 509 and 511.

I expect to see all but 2 cars move to 511 during the Pan Am Games.

We may see 7 more cars by then. 2 of those may make their way to 509.

With the cars going to 511, what has TTC done for TVM on Bathurst St at this time?? Less than haft of 509 have TVM now and will become POP March 30.

Actually the cars are all going to 509, not 511, during the March 29 - May 9 spadina and college construction per the TTC's official planning document for that period. Pan Am I believe they will be mostly 509 with a few 511 but that is unconfirmed. They don't explicitly require off-board TVMS to run them seeing as they have 2 on-board, but still a good point...I haven't seen work even start on installing them. Presto is also still not live at Bathurst station which I believe it's supposed to be in advance of any formal LFLRV service.

Edit:

Maybe more venues at the Exhibition end of the 511 than along the 509 route? The latter has just the 'Pan Am Ceremonies Venue' (a/k/a the dome), whereas there are half a dozen venues on the Ex grounds: beach volleyball, coliseum, Pan Am Park, Exhibition Stadium, Exhibition Centre and Ontario Place (channel near the west island).

The exhibition end of 509 and 511 is identical. They run along the same track west of Bathurst St., in a dedicated ROW along Fleet St., servicing the same stops (within the ex grounds, one at Strachan Ave. and then at the CNE Loop).

 

[smallspy]

The breakdowns in the streetcars are from a design flaw with the pneumatic breaks. Moisture in the air gets in and freezes. This shouldn't be an issue with the new streetcars, which use hydraulics instead of pneumatics and sand bags. In principle, the streetcars (being electric) should be more reliable than buses, but given that the streetcars are 40 years old and the buses are 10 it's difficult to make a fair comparison.

"Old age" is not a "design flaw". It would be funny if it was a design flaw, as it would then require all 1800+ buses to be pulled off the roads for faulty braking as well - which we all know is not the case.

Hmmm. Maybe "funny" isn't quite the right word.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[aquateam]

"Old age" is not a "design flaw". It would be funny if it was a design flaw, as it would then require all 1800+ buses to be pulled off the roads for faulty braking as well - which we all know is not the case.

Hmmm. Maybe "funny" isn't quite the right word.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

I guess flawed choice of braking technology for something with that kind of loading cycle? I didn't say it was a defect, just that it's specific to the design and shouldn't be an issue with the new braking system. If you want, the Globe has an infographic that goes into excruciating detail about how it gums up.

I wouldn't say it's specifically age-related since this mode of failure isn't directly caused by fatigue of the components.

 

[the lemur]

The exhibition end of 509 and 511 is identical. They run along the same track west of Bathurst St., in a dedicated ROW along Fleet St., servicing the same stops (within the ex grounds, one at Strachan Ave. and then at the CNE Loop).

Right you are - don't know why I thought the 509 was different. Maybe the decision to run the Flexities on 509 is because most of the route has the new platforms and TVMs?

 

[smallspy]

I guess flawed choice of braking technology for something with that kind of loading cycle? I didn't say it was a defect, just that it's specific to the design and shouldn't be an issue with the new braking system. If you want, the Globe has an infographic that goes into excruciating detail about how it gums up.

I wouldn't say it's specifically age-related since this mode of failure isn't directly caused by fatigue of the components.

There's nothing flawed about it though - they specifically chose an air-based system on the CLRVs and ALRVs to allow for parts and service commonality between both buses and subway cars. The hydraulic systems of the Flexities may be more reliable in the cold, but let's wait to pass judgment on their reliability until they've been in service for 10 years or more.

But to put it bluntly, and contrary to what the Globe says, it is entirely age-based. The air dryers were last replaced en masse over 10 years ago, and could probably stand to be replaced again. The plumbing is approaching 35 years old for the Cs, and over 25 for the As, and eventually copper tubes will crack and fail, and usually exactly where you don't want them to happen. Rubber gaskets shrink as they age and in the cold, and cause air to "weep".

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Here's an article from back in 2013, on

Ed Tennyson: Streetcars use streets more efficiently


from this link:

A recent Toronto poll found that opinions of metro-area respondents were almost evenly split on a plan to ban motor vehicles and allow only streetcars to operate on King Street (one of the downtown’s major thoroughfares) during morning peak hours, with 40% favoring the idea and 43% opposing it. While the plan had overwhelming support in the inner-city, the metro area’s more affluent, conservative suburbs (e.g., Scarborough) tended to oppose it. (Suburban voters have also tended to support conservative Mayor Rob Ford, who promotes policies similar to those of the USA’s Tea Party.)

The poll elicited the following observations and comments from Edson L. Tennyson, a renowned transportation engineer and consultant to the Light Rail Now Project. Ed is widely respected within the North American public transportation industry, having served as manager of several major transit agencies as well as Transportation Engineer for the City of Philadelphia and Deputy Director of Transportation for the State of Pennsylvania.

♦

Without facts the people responding to that poll do not know what they are talking about. Since King Street is in the Old City, what business is it of Scarborough?

Let us look at the facts. A lane of autos waiting at traffic signals can move only 900 passengers per hour, not enough to keep a city busy or healthy. I do not know the streetcar headway, but with 56,700 weekday passengers, it sounds like 4,500 one-way in the peak hour, 5 times auto capacity. With 90 people per 4-axle car, that would require a 1.2-minute headway, 50 cars per hour. With articulated cars, a 1.8-minute headway could handle it.

The point is, who wants to allow 900 [Mayor Rob] Ford supporters to block the movement of 4,500 people per hour? Polls will not move anyone, but those 800 automobiles with 900 people will block 4,500. That is stupid, uneconomical, and grossly unproductive. When gridlock gets bad, transit speed falls to three (3) miles per hour. A streetcar costing $235 per hour will cost $78 per mile at three miles per hour; but at 6 miles per hour, which might be possible with no autos, the streetcar cost falls to $39 per mile, a saving of 50 percent for farepayers and taxpayers. If the media had the integrity and equity to explain it that way, I am sure the polls would change drastically in favor of streetcars.

Crooked politicians like Mayor Ford were running the U.S. Congress in 1959 when they banned streetcars from the District of Columbia [i.e., Washington, DC]. They did it to speed auto travel, but it did not work that way. It sped auto travel, all right — away from the city instead if into it.

Back then, Washington’s streetcars were almost as busy as Toronto’s streetcars. They made a profit to subsidize bus service, but they annoyed motorists. Traffic engineers wanted the streetcar lanes for auto left turns, a very low-volume use. Traffic engineers were trained at the Eno Foundation, then subsidized by General Motors. They were required to teach the need to eliminate streetcars.

The last [Washington] streetcar ran in 1962. Buying new buses escalated fares drastically and drove away

most riders. Many downtown department stores went out of business. People with good jobs moved out of the city to escape auto congestion caused by automobiles, not streetcars.

From 1948 to 1975, transit use in Washington fell by 72%. The population fell from 750,000 to 590,000. By 1990 the City had so much debt it could not function. Congress had to bail it out, castrating City Council.

By then, MetroRail [rapid transit] was growing large enough to replace the streetcars and greatly reduce bus dependence. Transit increased almost 300% from 1975 to now. The Mayor just announced a tax cut as the
city has too much money. The population is growing with higher-income people.

When MetroRail was planned they took a close look at Toronto to get it right. They did.

Ed Tennyson was a senior technical consultant, living near Washington D.C.. He was perhaps the most prominent U.S. public transport expert.