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TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

From Globe, for those who can't sign onto their site:



Toronto is finally going to start getting new streetcars in substantial numbers, part of a new agreement for Bombardier to ramp up their troubled production schedule.

The Toronto Transit Commission has put only three new streetcars into service in the past six months‎. A fourth has arrived, but it is not yet operational.

This is a far cry from the numbers promised by Bombardier, which has been plagued by delays and quality problems. Frustration at the TTC has been mounting. And commuters relying on old and cold-prone streetcars have been left wondering when their new and more reliable ride would arrive.

According to the TTC, a new agreement with Bombardier will mean that the Thunder Bay company will produce two streetcars per month, starting in March. By the fall, this should double to four per month.

The new timetable means that the TTC should have 25 to 30 new streetcars by the end of the year. This will allow full coverage on Spadina ‎Avenue and Queens Quay, with almost full coverage on Bathurst Street.
 
From Globe, for those who can't sign onto their site:



Toronto is finally going to start getting new streetcars in substantial numbers, part of a new agreement for Bombardier to ramp up their troubled production schedule.

The Toronto Transit Commission has put only three new streetcars into service in the past six months‎. A fourth has arrived, but it is not yet operational.

This is a far cry from the numbers promised by Bombardier, which has been plagued by delays and quality problems. Frustration at the TTC has been mounting. And commuters relying on old and cold-prone streetcars have been left wondering when their new and more reliable ride would arrive.

According to the TTC, a new agreement with Bombardier will mean that the Thunder Bay company will produce two streetcars per month, starting in March. By the fall, this should double to four per month.

The new timetable means that the TTC should have 25 to 30 new streetcars by the end of the year. This will allow full coverage on Spadina ‎Avenue and Queens Quay, with almost full coverage on Bathurst Street.

What about the promised financial penalties that were supposed to be imposed on them? Are they still going to make them pay or have they quietly made it go away?
 
How long will each new one undergo testing?

I saw 4405 on Bathurst the other day.
The testing is not based on time, it is distance I think. I assume that as they find fewer defects in the new streetcars they may speed up the testing but it is probably a good idea to test before accepting vehicles. There is more on this further up the thread. EDIT UPDATE: This from Colle in Star: "The new cars have to run for 600 kilometres without problems before they’re used in revenue service."
 
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What about the promised financial penalties that were supposed to be imposed on them? Are they still going to make them pay or have they quietly made it go away?

The only penalty is if bombardier doesn't meet the end delivery date of 204 cars in 2019.

There is nothing in the contract stating any penalties for initial slowdowns.

If they indeed ramp up production to 4 a month then they will be able to meet the 2019 deadline.

If not then we will be hearing about it in 2019
 
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Came upon a 2005 report of TTC regarding the 204 cars. The report looked at how many more cars would be required from 2010 to 2016 for expansion and service improvements. A total of 27 cars were require and that would bring the fleet up to 231 come 2016.

We are at 2015 and only have 3 in service.

I said after the strike was over, we would not see 4406 until Jan which now looks like March or April.

I will believe having 30 cars here this year when I see 4401, 4002 and all the numbers between 4405 to 4430 in service by Dec 31, 2015. For the time being, not holding my breath on those numbers.

It is really time that TTC looks for another supplier for the extra 60 cars. I am very sure TTC will get them faster and cheaper than what taking place now.

We will have to wait tell the fall of 2016 for the 60th to arrive before TTC has to order that extra 60 cars, but at what price?
 
It is really time that TTC looks for another supplier for the extra 60 cars. I am very sure TTC will get them faster and cheaper than what taking place now.
Cheaper? How? Bombardier bid about $5 million per car on this (before accounting for things like spare parts). The next bid was about $7.5 million per car.

So who is suddenly going to bid less than $5 million per car?

And faster? Bombardier is talking about ramping up to 1 car a week in the fall. If they do that, they won't have any problems meeting the 2019 deadline - and 60 more cars would only add about 14 months to the deliveries.
 
The testing is not based on time, it is distance I think. I assume that as they find fewer defects in the new streetcars they may speed up the testing but it is probably a good idea to test before accepting vehicles. There is more on this further up the thread. EDIT UPDATE: This from Colle in Star: "The new cars have to run for 600 kilometres without problems before they’re used in revenue service."

I would assume that if they find a problem, Bombardier has to fix it and the odometer is reset back to zero.
 
Cheaper? How? Bombardier bid about $5 million per car on this (before accounting for things like spare parts). The next bid was about $7.5 million per car.

So who is suddenly going to bid less than $5 million per car?

And faster? Bombardier is talking about ramping up to 1 car a week in the fall. If they do that, they won't have any problems meeting the 2019 deadline - and 60 more cars would only add about 14 months to the deliveries.
The whole process was skewed from day by the Chair of TTC who said to me publicly at a TTC meeting, that unless the cars were coming from Thunder Bay, he was not interested in hearing about other suppliers having prototype cars here in 2007 before Thunder Bay.

I have stated publicly at TTC meeting that TTC was been taken for a ride as well the taxpayers of Ontario by going the the same sole source and was asking for trouble by having all your eggs in one basket.

If the trade rules that now exist were in place in 2005, TTC would had seen at least 6 bidders, not the 2, with the 3rd been rejected which I agree with since they could never handle this project in the first place.

As I stated in the past, Siemens only toss in a bid to keep their foot in the door for future orders.

Other than Minneapolis, Bombardier has never sold an LRT in the USA since that order which had the same problem as TTC order.

If you look at the price per car on small orders around the world including the USA, cost per car are cheaper than the one TTC are getting.

The ramp has been used for the delay before the strike and that is a BS line as it was only a matter of a few months delay, not a year.

Done too many bids to know when something stinks and this has stunk from day one. After going to a few TTC meetings, it was clear there were 2 issues with TTC. Management and how the commission was setup. The Commission is still a problem today with management not been as bad in the past under Andy leadership, but Andy is cleaning house and that a slow process and will take years to break the silos down.

It is not TTC nor the City place to protect jobs, but to get the right item for the best price so no one is paying higher price to use TTC as well the tax payers are putting money in someone else pocket.

The original contract completion date was 2018 and no way would the contract be fulfill by then at this rate. 2019 will be a tell time if the order is meet.

Looks like 4405 will make service in March.

All cars must do 600km burn in without problems before going into service. If problems do arise, it goes back to zero depending on the issue.
 
The whole process was skewed from day by the Chair of TTC who said to me publicly at a TTC meeting, that unless the cars were coming from Thunder Bay, he was not interested in hearing about other suppliers having prototype cars here in 2007 before Thunder Bay.
Though that would have been the previous TTC Chair. The final tender wasn't issued until 2008.

I have stated publicly at TTC meeting that TTC was been taken for a ride as well the taxpayers of Ontario by going the the same sole source and was asking for trouble by having all your eggs in one basket.
It was an open tender. There were 3 bidders originally, and only 2 bidders for the second tender after all 3 initial bids (including Bombardier) were rejected. Anyone in the world could have bidded. Presumably many thought they couldn't beat Bombardier.

Delay issues are endemic. Look at Seattle, where they are only ordering a handful of vehicles, and are delayed for years.
 

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