TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

[the lemur]

You try taking the streetcar to work on a cold winter day and say that you enjoyed the ride. They are freezing cold, snow comes in through the windows and doors! This is not the kind of transit Toronto deserves, and they gotta go now.

Many times I have in fact consciously taken the 510 to work from Spadina to Union instead of the subway in winter, especially when snow on the outdoor portion of the subway lines has caused a chain of delays. I've never felt cold on a streetcar. I have, however, gotten on older subway cars that didn't have the heat running (or sufficient light) - like being in a meat locker.

Plus nothing on the subway beats the view out of a streetcar window on most routes.

 

[the lemur]

Streetcars (and subway trains) are stored outside. Buses are generally stored inside garages. Guess they could store the streetcars inside the tunnels or underground loops when it's really cold. But it hasn't been really cold yet.

Doesn't Hillcrest keep at least some of its streetcars in hangars?

 

[Admiral Beez]

Streetcars offer a better smooth ride than buses. They also can deal with the snow better than buses..

I MUCH prefer streetcars over buses. Mind you, most of my experience on TTC buses goes back to my time taking the #12 from VicPark into Scarborough from about 1988 to 1995, where the buses were massively loud on acceleration with windows that vibrated and clacked violently in their frames. I remember thinking that this has to be a poisoned work environment for the poor driver (my granddad was a bus driver in London, UK, so I sympathize for the operators). Meanwhile the streetcars are smooth and comparatively silent.

 

[Jonny5]

Streetcars (and subway trains) are stored outside. Buses are generally stored inside garages. Guess they could store the streetcars inside the tunnels or underground loops when it's really cold. But it hasn't been really cold yet.

During the frost-quake inducing extreme cold snap last year, The Star reported that the TTC kept streetcars on and ready to go all night long, as they were worried if they turned them off they might not be able to start them up again.

 

[JayBeeGooner]

Many times I have in fact consciously taken the 510 to work from Spadina to Union instead of the subway in winter, especially when snow on the outdoor portion of the subway lines has caused a chain of delays. I've never felt cold on a streetcar. I have, however, gotten on older subway cars that didn't have the heat running (or sufficient light) - like being in a meat locker.

Plus nothing on the subway beats the view out of a streetcar window on most routes.

I take the subway everyday to work, and I sometime get cold T1's.
I find it annoying that people will blame an entire technology for a few malfunctioning vehicles. I have to yet to ride a cold streetcar. Always warm, except when someone opens a window.

 

[smallspy]

Doesn't Hillcrest keep at least some of its streetcars in hangars?

Streetcars are not stored at Hillcrest. Hillcrest is only for heavy maintenance, not storage.

During the frost-quake inducing extreme cold snap last year, The Star reported that the TTC kept streetcars on and ready to go all night long, as they were worried if they turned them off they might not be able to start them up again.

Streetcar aren't shut down, as they have a constant source of power upon which to draw upon. As long as the pole is against the wire, and there is power at the wire, they will continue to be "on".

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[44 North]

Streetcar aren't shut down, as they have a constant source of power upon which to draw upon. As long as the pole is against the wire, and there is power at the wire, they will continue to be "on".

In other words, the streetcars were left on. Most people understood the comment without having to dissect it and find any fault it - however minor or nonexistent.

 

[TransitPolicyChanger]

In other words, the streetcars were left on. Most people understood the comment without having to dissect it and find any fault it - however minor or nonexistent.

I believe they were left "on" as they were having issues with some equipment freezing (i'm sure smallspy can confirm - i think it was air hoses) - I recall there were quite a few days the entire fleet didn't make it out onto the street during those cold snaps

 

[44 North]

IIRC they ran more trains during the ice storm to keep the overhead wires from developing ice cover. And yes, the doors wouldn't open during the cold snaps - so they probably did leave them on all night. But smallspy will probably say I'm wrong only to rephrase what I wrote.

 

[smallspy]

In other words, the streetcars were left on. Most people understood the comment without having to dissect it and find any fault it - however minor or nonexistent.

I believe they were left "on" as they were having issues with some equipment freezing (i'm sure smallspy can confirm - i think it was air hoses) - I recall there were quite a few days the entire fleet didn't make it out onto the street during those cold snaps

Apparently most people don't understand the comment, as both of you - among others - don't understand the concept.

Streetcars aren't really left "on" as that would indicate that they can be turned "off" - which they can't. Individual functions can be turned off - the lights are turned out to indicate that the car has been cleaned, for instance - but the major functions (propulsion, heat, air compressors) are always running so long as the car is receiving power from the overhead.

And thus to say that "they are left on for the winter" is a bit misleading, as the cars are also left on for the summer, and for the spring, and for the fall.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[TransitPolicyChanger]

Apparently most people don't understand the comment, as both of you - among others - don't understand the concept.

Streetcars aren't really left "on" as that would indicate that they can be turned "off" - which they can't. Individual functions can be turned off - the lights are turned out to indicate that the car has been cleaned, for instance - but the major functions (propulsion, heat, air compressors) are always running so long as the car is receiving power from the overhead.

And thus to say that "they are left on for the winter" is a bit misleading, as the cars are also left on for the summer, and for the spring, and for the fall.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

Okay - take away the "on" comment and the question still remains: there were specific issues during the very coldest days last year, correct? Did the TTC take any additional steps beyond their routine overnight procedures for the cars? Or were they simply unable to do anything to prevent the issue and not utilize these cars for service?

 

[44 North]

Apparently most people don't understand the comment, as both of you - among others - don't understand the concept.

Streetcars aren't really left "on" as that would indicate that they can be turned "off" - which they can't. Individual functions can be turned off - the lights are turned out to indicate that the car has been cleaned, for instance - but the major functions (propulsion, heat, air compressors) are always running so long as the car is receiving power from the overhead.

And thus to say that "they are left on for the winter" is a bit misleading, as the cars are also left on for the summer, and for the spring, and for the fall.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

So the heat can't be turned off when the car is connected to the power supply? Wouldn't that be problematic in summer?

 

[the lemur]

Would it be more accurate to say streetcars are connected to their power source even when not operating? On standby, in a way?

 

[mdrejhon]

Would it be more accurate to say streetcars are connected to their power source even when not operating? On standby, in a way?

I think he meant that streetcars don't necessarily have a whole-system ON/OFF capability like a car starter.

But that the traction is on/off independently of heat on/off, etc.

So the heater and lighting ON/OFF is probably "always available" even if there's no key in the "ignition" (er, traction/motive unlocking feature). Meaning, you don't need a key to turn on/off the streetcar heater or streetcar lights. Or something like that.

Is that what he meant?

 

[smallspy]

Okay - take away the "on" comment and the question still remains: there were specific issues during the very coldest days last year, correct? Did the TTC take any additional steps beyond their routine overnight procedures for the cars? Or were they simply unable to do anything to prevent the issue and not utilize these cars for service?

There were, although by the same token there are specific issues with the bus fleet in times of extreme cold as well.

For the cars themselves? No. For the system? Yes. They would send out a dozen cars out in what is called "storm car" service - basically, operators paid to try and run over every single piece of track to try and keep switches and overhead free and clear.

As for not utilizing the cars - that's exactly what the TTC is doing. Last winter the TTC was running the CLRVs at less than a 10% spare ratio during the peak periods, and the ALRVs at about 25% for the same metric. This winter, they've reduced the number of CLRVs on the road by over 10 during the peak periods. That's why there are going to be 20 buses on the King route in the morning rush hours and 18 in the afternoon rush starting on the 5th.

So the heat can't be turned off when the car is connected to the power supply? Wouldn't that be problematic in summer?

Not really. The heaters are on a thermostat, and only warm up if the car gets below a certain temperature.

Of course, thermostats can fail as well, which is why we have instances of cars with no heat in the winter and with the heat on in the summer.

Would it be more accurate to say streetcars are connected to their power source even when not operating? On standby, in a way?

I suppose that they could be called "standby", although there is nothing in the cars that would put them into a "standby" mode, or require "waking up" from such a mode. The new cars will have a standby mode that shuts the heaters and A/C system off and turns the lights out.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.