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cassiusa
Guest
Another good reason we should reduce a lane of car traffic on each of these roads and give the streetcars their own designated right of way lanes.
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cacruden
Guest
Yep, they would not be roadblocks if they had their own lane -- of course there might be a few less lanes of traffic :rollin
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bizorky
Guest
Less lanes equals slower traffic. More sit-still time for those who covet the vacuous words Craig "Tough Man" B.
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Mike in TO
Guest
Or a Queen St. Subway, get rid of the streetcar and make everyone happy.
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AlvinofDiaspar
Guest
Globe: TTC to Consider Streetcar Purchase
From the Globe:
TTC to consider streetcar purchase
JEFF GRAY
Toronto's disco-era streetcars could be on their way out as early as 2010 and replaced by sleek, new light-rail vehicles, if plans on the table at today's Toronto Transit Commission meeting are approved.
New "low-floor" streetcars, accessible to the disabled, quieter and bigger than the regular-sized vehicles in the current fleet -- now nearing 30 years old -- have long been on the TTC wish list, especially as it looks to build more streetcar routes.
For the past two years, the city's number crunchers have balked at TTC plans to shop for new streetcars, which carry a likely price tag of about $3-million to $5-million each, insisting instead on a plan to refurbish the existing fleet at a cost of $1-million a car and keep them on the rails until closer to 2020.
TTC chairman Adam Giambrone said the transit agency will present plans today to order new streetcars much sooner, but order fewer of them to keep up-front costs down. To last long enough for their replacements to arrive, most of the TTC's 196 current Canadian Light Rail Vehicles (CLRVs) would still need a lower-cost overhaul.
"It doesn't make them more expensive or cheaper," Mr. Giambrone said of the new plan. "It spreads the cash flow out. . . . It's a question of when do you write the cheque."
Mr. Giambrone said TTC and city finance officials are still going over the numbers. But he said he believes the new formula would make the multimillion-dollar purchase more palatable to the cash-strapped city.
Even if the TTC persuades the city, the transit agency will still need help from the provincial and federal governments to buy the streetcars, Mr. Giambrone said.
Unlike the controversial subway car contract handed to Bombardier last year, TTC officials have said the streetcar purchase -- worth as much as $650-million -- will be put out to tender. TTC engineers have travelled to Europe and the United States to examine new light-rail vehicles in action.
Many cities are buying new vehicles as light-rail enjoys a rebirth, especially in the United States. Germany's Siemens, Montreal-based Bombardier, and Czech-based Skoda all make low-floor, light-rail vehicles, and may be among the firms that compete for the TTC contract.
TTC officials have previously said that Skoda's cars, running in Portland, Ore., were close to meeting Toronto's requirements.
Representatives of the Czech Republic have met with at least one TTC commissioner, according to the city's voluntary lobbyist registry.
Whatever the TTC buys, the car will have to be modified to handle the Toronto system's steep Bathurst Street hill, various tight turns and the TTC's wider tracks.
The city councillors on the TTC will also discuss the transit agency's 2007 operating budget, which has a projected $33.5-million hole. Mr. Giambrone and other commissioners have said they are reluctant to consider a third consecutive fare increase to close the gap.
AoD
From the Globe:
TTC to consider streetcar purchase
JEFF GRAY
Toronto's disco-era streetcars could be on their way out as early as 2010 and replaced by sleek, new light-rail vehicles, if plans on the table at today's Toronto Transit Commission meeting are approved.
New "low-floor" streetcars, accessible to the disabled, quieter and bigger than the regular-sized vehicles in the current fleet -- now nearing 30 years old -- have long been on the TTC wish list, especially as it looks to build more streetcar routes.
For the past two years, the city's number crunchers have balked at TTC plans to shop for new streetcars, which carry a likely price tag of about $3-million to $5-million each, insisting instead on a plan to refurbish the existing fleet at a cost of $1-million a car and keep them on the rails until closer to 2020.
TTC chairman Adam Giambrone said the transit agency will present plans today to order new streetcars much sooner, but order fewer of them to keep up-front costs down. To last long enough for their replacements to arrive, most of the TTC's 196 current Canadian Light Rail Vehicles (CLRVs) would still need a lower-cost overhaul.
"It doesn't make them more expensive or cheaper," Mr. Giambrone said of the new plan. "It spreads the cash flow out. . . . It's a question of when do you write the cheque."
Mr. Giambrone said TTC and city finance officials are still going over the numbers. But he said he believes the new formula would make the multimillion-dollar purchase more palatable to the cash-strapped city.
Even if the TTC persuades the city, the transit agency will still need help from the provincial and federal governments to buy the streetcars, Mr. Giambrone said.
Unlike the controversial subway car contract handed to Bombardier last year, TTC officials have said the streetcar purchase -- worth as much as $650-million -- will be put out to tender. TTC engineers have travelled to Europe and the United States to examine new light-rail vehicles in action.
Many cities are buying new vehicles as light-rail enjoys a rebirth, especially in the United States. Germany's Siemens, Montreal-based Bombardier, and Czech-based Skoda all make low-floor, light-rail vehicles, and may be among the firms that compete for the TTC contract.
TTC officials have previously said that Skoda's cars, running in Portland, Ore., were close to meeting Toronto's requirements.
Representatives of the Czech Republic have met with at least one TTC commissioner, according to the city's voluntary lobbyist registry.
Whatever the TTC buys, the car will have to be modified to handle the Toronto system's steep Bathurst Street hill, various tight turns and the TTC's wider tracks.
The city councillors on the TTC will also discuss the transit agency's 2007 operating budget, which has a projected $33.5-million hole. Mr. Giambrone and other commissioners have said they are reluctant to consider a third consecutive fare increase to close the gap.
AoD
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allabootmatt
Guest
Anyone aware of whether this was approved? Seems it would be a tough funding request for other levels of govt to turn down in the present political situation.
Toronto can't replace the streetcars soon enough, s'far as I'm concerned--anyone who has had the benefit of riding a modern tram in Berlin or Amsterdam can see easily how far behind the curve our clunkers are.
I do wonder one thing about some of these (very) low-floor newfangled designs: snow clearance. It seems like the new Citadis trams in Melbourne, for instance, would not be able to get through more than about half-an-inch of snow (as necessary there). Something the TTC will have to consider in looking at off-the-shelf models, I suppose.
Toronto can't replace the streetcars soon enough, s'far as I'm concerned--anyone who has had the benefit of riding a modern tram in Berlin or Amsterdam can see easily how far behind the curve our clunkers are.
I do wonder one thing about some of these (very) low-floor newfangled designs: snow clearance. It seems like the new Citadis trams in Melbourne, for instance, would not be able to get through more than about half-an-inch of snow (as necessary there). Something the TTC will have to consider in looking at off-the-shelf models, I suppose.
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spmarshall
Guest
From what I understand, the Bombardier trams currently used in Minneapolis are compliant with our tight turns. That system is mostly open track rather than street-running, but it can be done.
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drum118
Guest
Yes it was.
RFP to be issue by Oct 2007 (To Long), bid to close Feb 2008 and contract issue by April 2008.
First 2 test LRT to arrive in 2010 and delivery to start in 2011 and 12 for 50 only. Option for another 154 in 2012.
System to be 100% LRT by 2018 (I said this was going to happen sooner than later)
132 CLRV's will see overhaul only to extend them 5 years.
Still leaves TTC 107 cars shorts to meet expansion as well additional needs for 2018 time frame or 122 for 2023 based on 1990's ridership growth figures. Will require more than 150 for 2025 needs.
King St will see no Streetcar service for 2-3yrs and will be service by buses only.
TTC has 23 CLRV's non serviceable now.
Ridership to grow by 2%/yr
There are 4 firms that can meet TTC needs now with an off the shelf model with Citadis leading the way. TTC is eyeing Thunderbay for the new LRT's.
Move in the right direction, but still playing games with the Budget Committee. TTC needs 7 LRT's for the Waterfront LRT's new lines by 2010 since the TOR was approved on Jan 24-07.
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allabootmatt
Guest
My god. This doesn't sound very promising...ditching cars on King because of shortage!!??! Definitely hoping this is some sort of scare tactic to squeeze out more money.
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AlvinofDiaspar
Guest
From the Post:
Lowand behold the future of the tram
$1-billion TTC project
Greg Macdonald, National Post
Published: Thursday, February 01, 2007
The Toronto Transit Commission yesterday approved a plan to introduce 50 low-ride streetcars by 2011, with an option to add 150 more in the following years.
At the presentation of its capital budget, the TTC unveiled the $1-billion project that would see two bigger, quieter prototypes ready for testing by 2010.
Joe Mihevc, the commission's vice-chairman, called the plan the "crown jewel" of the TTC's 2007 budget. He said it manages to fit with city plans, avoid conflict, and not hurt the TTC financially in the short term. "Staff who worked on the plan "deserve a Nobel prize for economics and one for peace," he said.
Mr. Mihevc believes the plan will also draw support from the provincial and federal government because it fits in with Kyoto targets by reducing the number of cars on the road.
"This is an exciting opportunity to give our customers access to a modern vehicle," deputy general manager Rick Cornacchia said during his presentation of the new plan.
The TTC hopes to secure a contractor by April, 2008. From there, two cars will be tested in fall 2010, and the full fleet would debut in 2011-2012.
After the initial order, the commission would have the option to purchase 150 more streetcars, which would hit the streets beginning in 2018. The cars will cost between $3- and $5-million each.
The capital budget also included the $20-million renovation of Victoria Park subway station. The redesign will include a front entrance, something the current building is lacking.
"There's no front entrance, it's ugly, it's dysfunctional and it's not accessible," said Councillor Janet Davis.
TTC chair Adam Giambrone also announced a budget shortfall of $33-million for the commission's operating costs.
The commission is hoping that it will be able to "nip and tuck" some of the costs, said Mr. Mihevc, but more serious action will need to take place to eliminate the bulk of the deficit.
"It's a serious shortfall and we need to deal with it. I can't see how we can get out of it without either a fare increase, a contribution from the city, or a contribution from provincial or the federal governments," he said.
Mr. Mihevc stressed a fare increase is a last resort.
_________________________________________________
There is also a graphic showing the proposed design in the article.
AoD
Lowand behold the future of the tram
$1-billion TTC project
Greg Macdonald, National Post
Published: Thursday, February 01, 2007
The Toronto Transit Commission yesterday approved a plan to introduce 50 low-ride streetcars by 2011, with an option to add 150 more in the following years.
At the presentation of its capital budget, the TTC unveiled the $1-billion project that would see two bigger, quieter prototypes ready for testing by 2010.
Joe Mihevc, the commission's vice-chairman, called the plan the "crown jewel" of the TTC's 2007 budget. He said it manages to fit with city plans, avoid conflict, and not hurt the TTC financially in the short term. "Staff who worked on the plan "deserve a Nobel prize for economics and one for peace," he said.
Mr. Mihevc believes the plan will also draw support from the provincial and federal government because it fits in with Kyoto targets by reducing the number of cars on the road.
"This is an exciting opportunity to give our customers access to a modern vehicle," deputy general manager Rick Cornacchia said during his presentation of the new plan.
The TTC hopes to secure a contractor by April, 2008. From there, two cars will be tested in fall 2010, and the full fleet would debut in 2011-2012.
After the initial order, the commission would have the option to purchase 150 more streetcars, which would hit the streets beginning in 2018. The cars will cost between $3- and $5-million each.
The capital budget also included the $20-million renovation of Victoria Park subway station. The redesign will include a front entrance, something the current building is lacking.
"There's no front entrance, it's ugly, it's dysfunctional and it's not accessible," said Councillor Janet Davis.
TTC chair Adam Giambrone also announced a budget shortfall of $33-million for the commission's operating costs.
The commission is hoping that it will be able to "nip and tuck" some of the costs, said Mr. Mihevc, but more serious action will need to take place to eliminate the bulk of the deficit.
"It's a serious shortfall and we need to deal with it. I can't see how we can get out of it without either a fare increase, a contribution from the city, or a contribution from provincial or the federal governments," he said.
Mr. Mihevc stressed a fare increase is a last resort.
_________________________________________________
There is also a graphic showing the proposed design in the article.
AoD
D
doady
Guest
The TTC is buying too few streetcar and they buying them too slowly. Only 50 from now until 2018??? They should be replacing the current fleet as soon as possible. Also, they have 248 streetcars total and only plan to buy 200 replacements, it doesn't add up.
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EnviroTO
Guest
I don't think the speed of deliveries beyond 2010 matters much. If they can get the first order done they can always move up the future purchases if the political climate is right. This first order would remove a lot of the political road blocks to ordering LRTs (deciding what model, fear of ballooning costs due to inability to order off the shelf, fear of what LRT means versus streetcar, etc.). Once they are here it will be a lot easier to order more. The money has been there for streetcar refits, bus orders, and replacement subway vehicles so there is no reason to believe that it wouldn't be there for LRT purchases once the "fear of the unknown" is removed.
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akaFTech
Guest
lrt
It would be nice if Toronto's LRT looked like these:
It would be nice if Toronto's LRT looked like these:
D
Degnaw
Guest
Re: lrt
I wonder who thought of that crazy idea...
I wonder who thought of that crazy idea...
S
scarberiankhatru
Guest
"Also, they have 248 streetcars total and only plan to buy 200 replacements, it doesn't add up."
It does (to the TTC) if the new ones are longer...why run 5 regular cars when you can run 4 slightly bigger cars?
It does (to the TTC) if the new ones are longer...why run 5 regular cars when you can run 4 slightly bigger cars?