TTC Fleet Procurement Strategy - 2022

[nfitz]

The current RFP quantities simply cover a 1-to-1 replacement of the current fleet, plus a couple of additional trains to cover the projected improvements to the existing line/service for the next 10-ish years.


There are a number of options available to be taken that cover the additional trains required for the Scarborough Extension, both for the limited service that the TTC has publicly claimed will be run (every second train) and for an enhanced service where every single train is run up to Sheppard.

Hopefully there's a healthy and long-term period to add extra trains. Particularly if other extensions go ahead, such as a Line 4 extension, or there is a need to run trains more frequently.

Though the TR contract certainly had enough amendments for extra trains, and modified configurations.

 

[smallspy]

Hopefully there's a healthy and long-term period to add extra trains. Particularly if other extensions go ahead, such as a Line 4 extension, or there is a need to run trains more frequently.

Though the TR contract certainly had enough amendments for extra trains, and modified configurations.

The RFP lays out exactly just how many options the TTC is potentially looking for:

-7 trains for the Scarborough Extension (every second train)
- 8 trains for the Yonge North Extension (every second train)
- 5 trains for additional service improvements on the YUS
- 8 trains for the Yonge North Extension (to allow for every train to run north of Finch)
- 4 trains for the Scarborough Extension (to allow for every train to run east of Kennedy)

Dan

 

[nfitz]

The RFP lays out exactly just how many options the TTC is potentially looking for:

-7 trains for the Scarborough Extension (every second train)
- 8 trains for the Yonge North Extension (every second train)
- 5 trains for additional service improvements on the YUS
- 8 trains for the Yonge North Extension (to allow for every train to run north of Finch)
- 4 trains for the Scarborough Extension (to allow for every train to run east of Kennedy)

Is that all included in the 80 trains - or is the 23 trains for YUS in addition?

Hopefully by the time deliveries are finished, we'll know what's going on with the promised Line 4 extension. And perhaps even a line 2 extension westward - if I want to dream.

 

[smallspy]

Is that all included in the 80 trains - or is the 23 trains for YUS in addition?

Hopefully by the time deliveries are finished, we'll know what's going on with the promised Line 4 extension. And perhaps even a line 2 extension westward - if I want to dream.

They're options, so they're above and beyond the original 80.

Dan

 

[Deadpool X]

I was trying to be diplomatic so that you would check your math, where the error was clear,

You stated that:


Your mistake is that you only included the travel time for one direction. It's 26.23 km in each direction. The average speed is about 30 km/hr! (actually 29.8 km/hr in AM peak pre-Covid - though currently they are running at 30.9 km/hr). So the one-way travel time is 52.8 minutes. There's actually no time scheduled for turn-around (which is odd).

So if it's about an hour for a one-way trip, it's about 2 hours for a round trip, not one (actually 1.75 hours).

So instead of your estimate of 40 trains, the number would be closer to 80 trains. As they are planning 80 trains for the whole thing, including the 7.5 km extension, then they are actually utilizing resource BETTER than one might thing!

Here's the last - pre-Covid schedule:
View attachment 434217

I remain concerned that 80 trainsets might not be enough if there's no plan to short-turn some trains at Kennedy, and that they can run better than every 141 seconds (25.5 trains an hour) once ATC is installed.

Deadpool is correct, that is the average speed - which includes station dwell time.

Thanks, I see the error now in my calculation. For some reason I took 26 km for 26 min in the same breath when I said the average speed is 30 km/hr lol.

 

[turini2]

Maybe in 35 years, TTC can bring back the rail fan seat for the full width of the car once the trains become driverless and time to replace the existing ones. Will post shortly an video of an rail fan view I shot in Copenhagen this year from the airport to the tunnel in the opening.

Rail fans are never the priority, quite rightly. It's a nice thing to have, rather than a necessity.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Rail fans are never the priority, quite rightly. It's a nice thing to have, rather than a necessity.

Since the trains will have cameras all over, how about having the cameras available for viewing on our smartphones? Especially, the front and rear views.

 

[turini2]

Since the trains will have cameras all over, how about having the cameras available for viewing on our smartphones? Especially, the front and rear views.

I can see the newspaper headlines now "taxpayers waste money on cameras for transit nerds"
One day soon, Toronto will have driverless trains and we can sit at the front and watch the world go by. I'd rather they spent money on improving things in the meantime!

 

[W. K. Lis]

I can see the newspaper headlines now "taxpayers waste money on cameras for transit nerds"
One day soon, Toronto will have driverless trains and we can sit at the front and watch the world go by. I'd rather they spent money on improving things in the meantime!

Better than wasting billions of dollars to keep the eastern section of the Gardiner Expressway so that the 905ers will have free use of for their expensive automobile toys.

 

[cplchanb]

Better than wasting billions of dollars to keep the eastern section of the Gardiner Expressway so that the 905ers will have free use of for their expensive automobile toys.

you do know that the rail fan window only appeases a fraction of a percent of the overall transit population...

 

[Undead]

Plus demoing it would cost plenty, rivaling the current option in scale of expenses (100s of millions, if I remember right). The constant exaggeration and misrepresentation in every thread is tiresome.

 

[DirectionNorth]

Plus demoing it would cost plenty, rivaling the current option in scale of expenses (100s of millions, if I remember right). The constant exaggeration and misrepresentation in every thread is tiresome.

The Gardiner demolition would mean less maintenance funds spent on it later in its life, as well as extra land opened to redevelopment. That being said I don't think a full demolition is the best course of action, not while cars are still dominant in the outer parts of the city (the province should take over its running costs, or allow tolls. But Doug Ford.)

Cameras ... they probably aren't that expensive, but I don't want to see their maintenance costs.

 

[ARG1]

The Gardiner demolition would mean less maintenance funds spent on it later in its life, as well as extra land opened to redevelopment. That being said I don't think a full demolition is the best course of action, not while cars are still dominant in the outer parts of the city (the province should take over its running costs, or allow tolls. But Doug Ford.)

Cameras ... they probably aren't that expensive, but I don't want to see their maintenance costs.

Let's start a movement to reverse the Mike Harris downloads for starters.

#BringBackHighway11

 

[Deadpool X]

Better than wasting billions of dollars to keep the eastern section of the Gardiner Expressway so that the 905ers will have free use of for their expensive automobile toys.

As if people living in 416 pay toll to use it . Do you know that taxpayers outside of Toronto help fund TTC?

What next? I don't want people outside of my neighbourhood to drive on my neighbourhood streets?

What if people of Mississauga ask Toronto to build its airport somewhere else? What if people of Durham ask Toronto to generate its electricity on its own?

If we start becoming that petty, then we all will need to carve out our own country.

 

[jje1000]

Not sure if this is the right thread to post in, but apparently the new TR order for Line 2 has been cancelled, as reported by Steve Munro and @Reecemartin ?

The Toronto Transit Commission issued a Request for Proposals (RFP) on October 13, 2022 for the procurement of New Subway Trains.

The RFP indicated that the TTC was in the process of actively pursuing additional funding from other orders of government (Provincial and Federal), and that contract award was subject to receiving full funding commitments by early 2023. As detailed in item 1.2.2 – Funding Status of Part 1 – Invitation and Submission Instructions of the RFP document: “Timelines associated with this RFP have been communicated to potential funding partners, and a request for confirmation of funding by early 2023 has been requested. In order to receive the NST deliveries in time for the legacy fleet replacement and to meet growth needs, the TTC has elected to commence the procurement at this time, however, contract award is subject to receiving full funding commitments.”

Unfortunately, the additional funding required has not been secured and as such, TTC is cancelling the RFP effective immediately, and the Bonfire Portal will be closed.
The TTC will continue to have discussions with the Provincial and Federal governments on funding requirements for New Subway Trains and evaluate the requirements for issuance of a future Request for Pre-Qualification and Request for Proposals in the future.

TTC Cancels RFP For New Subway Trains (Updated)

A Request for Proposals for new subway trains has been cancelled due to lack of funding. The following notice was sent to all vendors on Friday, June 23: The Toronto Transit Commission issued a Req…

stevemunro.ca

EDIT: As of June 26th the TTC has cancelled its plan to procure new trains - highlighting the need to refurbish the older cars!

Renovate and Refurbish Things, PLEASE!

Far too often, cities and transit agencies take a "new-or-nothing" approach to infrastructure and vehicles, and that's bad!

rmtransit.substack.com