TTC faces driver dilemma as ridership rockets

[rbtaylor]

And let the working poor eat cake with $4 cash fares

I don't see how this is any different than today. People who need help cannot afford $2.75 either.

Why should people who are well off receive a $1.25 subsidy that they don't need when someone else really could have used a $2.50 subsidy instead of the $1.25 that they actually got.

I'm strongly in favour of targeted TTC subsidies scaled to income.

The current $250M operational subsidy reduces fares by about 25% across the board. It could instead be used to give 200 thousand TTC customers (10% of the city population) free or very cheap ($10 per month) metropasses.

 

[roch5220]

I'm strongly in favour of TTC fares based upon distance. The thing with subsidies, if someone really is only making 8 bucks an hour, they can generally find work (ie working at Tim's, Mcdonalds, etc.) close to their residence due to the unskilled nature of jobs that offer that type of wage (the help wanted signs at retail/fast food outlets at this wage level are very prevalent). I made $7 bucks back in the early 90s working at crap tire during high school. If I really wanted to travel less, I could of been a microwave technican and heated up burgers at Mcdonalds. There are help wanted signs everywhere. (Targeted at the $8 bucks an hour crack).

I'm strongly in favour of targeted TTC subsidies scaled to income.

The main squeeze is really the lower middle class, the people making the $23 bucks an hour to support a family. These guys would be best with tax credits base upon their transit costs. There are ways to do this even for a distance based fare system. Either through electronic cards, vouchers, etc. But that would be a different topic.

 

[rbtaylor]

The main squeeze is really the lower middle class, the people making the $23 bucks an hour to support a family. These guys would be best with tax credits base upon their transit costs.

You may be right. My experience is with Habitat for Humanity and the Durham Region public housing department. Both of these groups tend to focus on those with nothing and as a result have probably influenced my focus.

 

[bizorky]

I'm strongly in favour of targeted TTC subsidies scaled to income.

I'm strongly in favour of a well-funded transit system with low fares. Taxation on income and consumption would not require the setting up of a cumbersome system to verify income qualification to purchase a ride.

 

[spmarshall]

I agree. What's wrong with taxes paying for the 20% of the operating subsidy the TTC needs and having a simple fare system? Otherwise, somebody will lose (be it the working poor with a $4 fare, or someone just shy of the low-income cut-off.

This is why I was against Bob Rae and his Post-Secondary Review whitewash. Rae wanted tuition fees to go way up. He advocated income-contingent loans (which penalize those with the least ability to pay them off quickly) and bursaries for the poorest students - the ones screwed were those who come from lower-middle class families - those too wealthy for grants and bursaries, but with out the money to pay up front.

 

[cacruden]

The general fare should be based on distance -- and the system should be integrated. $4 for a short trip is a little high.

The TTC and Ontario government should be encouraging transit by "encouraging" employers to sign discount transit contracts with the TTC, and providing employees with transit passes. I don't know what that policy adjustments would be best, but I am sure that there are smarter people than me that -- if given the mandate to drive up ridership -- could develop a plan to get more people on the transit system for a reasonable price.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

The issue isn't demand for transit - the issue is having enough funding and transit capacity to accomodate and/or heighten the demand. Encouraging deals for employers would do nothing but siphon money away from the system. It's exactly the kind of thing that lead to the misguided transit tax credit.

AoD

 

[doady]

The TTC does not pay for the transit tax credit, so a higher ridership from this doesn't make the TTC any less efficient. Transit systems are always more efficient when ridership is high instead of low, as long as all riders are paying for service of course.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

doady:

The point is the money earmarked for the tax credit would be far more benefitial when given directly to the transit systems as capital and/or operational funding (note I didn't use the word "efficient" in my previous argument).

Whether all riders are paying for the service or not has nothing to do with the efficiency of the transit system, so long as the ridership is high (thus decreasing the unit cost).'

AoD

 

[cacruden]

The more people that you can move on to the TTC (increase demand) and the more monthly passes you can sell the more likely you can get the government of Ontario to invest in new rapid transit construction.

 

[cacruden]

Truth be told -- if you want more subway or rapid transit options -- about the only way you are going to get them is to move to a new city.

One city that is geting a hugh investment in new transit projects -- is not in the "first world"..... no ... it is Bangkok.

Since I first visited the city, and used it's relatively new Skytrain..... they have added a second rapid transit line (which is a subway). Plans are in place (a little scaled back after the coup) to start the bidding (and building) of FIVE new electrified train routes (mostly subway). Yes FIVE. Not to mention there current lines are schedule for expansion.....

 

[simply Dan]

One city that is geting a hugh investment in new transit projects -- is not in the "first world"..... no ... it is Bangkok.

Yes. The spectacular new recently-opened international airport in Bangkok has been closed again due to shoddy poor-quality construction. Perhaps their gleaming new subway stations will also be closed due to a fear of tunnel collapse or something. 3rd-world megaprojects and infrastructure investment may look impressive on the surface... but fundamental flaws continue to exist. If they want to play catch-up with developed nations, they first have to look at things like hiring qualified engineers and paying their construction workers a fair wage. The amount of deaths in the Thai construction industry is staggering and unacceptable.

 

[doady]

The point is the money earmarked for the tax credit would be far more benefitial when given directly to the transit systems as capital and/or operational funding (note I didn't use the word "efficient" in my previous argument).

I totally agree with you. The money for tax credit would have been much better used if given directly to the transit systems. All I am saying is the TTC is still benefitting from it, or at the very least not losing anything.

 

[billonlogan]

Perhaps their gleaming new subway stations will also be closed due to a fear of tunnel collapse or something

Crews seek victims at Brazil subway site
1/13/2007, 10:06 p.m. ET
By ALAN CLENDENNING
The Associated Press&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp

SAO PAULO, Brazil (AP) — Rescue crews aided by dogs searched into the night Saturday for occupants of a minibus and other possible victims feared buried in a huge crater after the earth gave way at a construction site for a new subway station.

Witnesses told police that a minibus with a driver, fare collector and two passengers fell into the crater when a 130-foot-wide circular hole lined with concrete walls at the site collapsed Friday, said Etrusco Juarez, a spokesman for Sao Paulo's state public security department.

Two pedestrians and a truck driver who was working at the construction site were also missing and may be buried under the rubble, the government's Agencia Brasil news agency said.
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp
The search effort continued after darkness set in Saturday, and authorities said it was possible there were still survivors more than 24 hours after the accident. But rescuers had not found any sign of the minibus or possible victims by late Saturday night.

"We're making every possible effort in the search for the people who disappeared," Sao Paulo state Gov. Jose Serra told reporters at the site.

The hole at the construction site collapsed without warning Friday, creating a crater about 260 feet wide and 125 feet deep. It swallowed cars and dump trucks along one of the busiest traffic corridors in South America's largest city.

Two cars were removed from the rubble Saturday and a 55-ton crane teetering at the edge of the hole was stabilized. More than 100 people living nearby were evacuated, however, for fear the crane may still topple over, Sao Paulo's Civil Defense Department said in a statement.

The cause of the collapse was under investigation, but the consortium of Brazilian companies building the subway station said in a statement that heavy tropical rains may have contributed by softening the ground under the site.

"All efforts are focusing now on the rescue of possible victims," said Consorcio Via Amarela, a group that includes Constructora Norberto Odebrecht SA, Brazil's largest construction company. The consortium denied that the accident was caused by negligence.

 

[cacruden]

Yes. The spectacular new recently-opened international airport in Bangkok has been closed again due to shoddy poor-quality construction. Perhaps their gleaming new subway stations will also be closed due to a fear of tunnel collapse or something. 3rd-world megaprojects and infrastructure investment may look impressive on the surface... but fundamental flaws continue to exist. If they want to play catch-up with developed nations, they first have to look at things like hiring qualified engineers and paying their construction workers a fair wage. The amount of deaths in the Thai construction industry is staggering and unacceptable.

First, the airport is open. Only domestic flights will move back to the old airport starting in march -- the new airport is already near its current maximum of 45 million passengers a year. Two, don't believe everything you hear....yes there are some problems with the airport, but mostly it is with peripheral issues -- i.e. parking and drainage -- and some corruption. But the current government is going to play up any problems since they have to make sure the previous government look as corrupt as possible.

I have been through the new subway, and I am impressed with it. In areas it is massive and in one place -- very deep (and very modern).

The cost for the upcoming construction is still around 15 billion Canadian dollars (even with the cheaper wages). When is the last time anyone invested 15 billion dollars in the Toronto Transit system.

I have heard many more complaints about condo construction problems in Vancouver than in Bangkok. They have new large buildings (condo's are still going up all around me), mega malls (Siam Paragon).

Is there corruption and cutting corners sometimes? Yes


Are there problems in Canada? Yes -- Laval bridge collapse, Olympic stadium in Montreal, Condo construction on the Fair grounds in Vancouver.