T3G
Senior Member
We don't have any real problems in this city that we're worrying about the look of overhead wires?
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TTC: Electric and alternative fuel buses
- Thread starter drum118
- Start date
dowlingm
Senior Member
That presumes that there will be hybrids to buy (and capacity from those selling them). Nova is already signalling that they will only have hybrids for sale in 2027 subject to sufficient demand, and they are completely exiting the diesel (end 2025) and CNG (end 2026) markets. https://www.londontransit.ca/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Staff-Report-1-Contract-Award.pdf
RapidTransit
Active Member
The same company that provided us trolley buses are the same company making our current ebuses. Same company will also continue to make diesel and hybrid buses for the foreseeable future . That company is called New flyer, Formally called Flyer. So if Nova wants out if the bus market, Newflyer will be available.
Steve X
Senior Member
A (big) battery ebus and a trolley pole (with a smaller battery) ebus isn't that much different. One has a power souce, the big battery while the other has two power sources, a smaller battery and two trolley poles. Everything else could be the same.
Guess there won't be new artics anytime soon after this order if that's being phased out.
RapidTransit
Active Member
TTC just got New flyer hybrid artic's within the last year. I would assume, if Nova leaves the hybrid market and no 60ft ebus in sight, then new flyer will be the sole provider. NFI has both ebus articulated and hybrid articulated.
Only downfall is, I'm sure New Flyer will milk TTC when the time comes to replace the existing Nova artic fleet.
I do find the ride quality on the NFI buses way better than the Novas, so if NFI does gouge TTC at least it will be better.
Also, NFI already has automated driverless buses available as well.
Steve X
Senior Member
If you read what the report said, it's the end of the line for hybrid artics. The current engines don't meet the EPA2027 specs and thus cannot be sold in a few years. They need Cummins to develop a new engine and NFI needs to invest a significant amount of money to make it fit a new chassis. If interest is low, they rather not develop one. Nova would only make 40 foot hybrids (if demand is met) and ebuses.
Articulated ebus is a premature technology. TTC hasn't been convinced to pliot one yet.
RapidTransit
Active Member
Cummins is already introducing the X10 and hybrid version for EPA 2027. NFI will be testing this out before full rollout.
The report speaks to Nova and NFI , yes. But the information I have is way more recent than the report.
Steve X
Senior Member
That would be great if that's accurate.
drum118
Superstar
I find it strange that NA can't supply an articulate ebus, yet a rode a lot of them in Europe and sat on the bus while recharging back in 2022. Even watch them charging at bus terminals using various types of overhead systems. Charging was done in less than 10 minutes. Saw more articulate buses than 42'- 45' in places that had DD back in 2012.
Steve X
Senior Member
You can buy one. The XE60 exists but the maximum range offered is the 186 mile model compared to the 254 mile for the XE40. That is only 73% of the range. They would be more suited for rush hour runs like 941 Keele, 953 Steeles East or 985B Sheppard East.
When the TTC did the test, they estimated that only around 70% of the actual capacity is usable for service. TTC indicates their current XE40s have a 400kWh capacity but NFI offers up to 520 kWh models now. A 30% improvement. That puts the best new XE60s around 10-20 miles less than the existing 5-year-old XE40s. They are differently not suitable for all-day routes.
Reference:
TTC eBus Study: Final Results
Updated April 10, 2022 at 10:30pm: Minor typos fixed. Bus order size for eBuses by TTC corrected. Reference to use of pantographs for charging on TTC buses corrected. Updated April 18, 2022 at 2:50…
stevemunro.ca
Xcelsior CHARGE NG™ - New Flyer | North America’s Bus Leader
Xcelsior CHARGE NG™ is New Flyer’s next generation battery-electric, zero-emission bus. Learn more about our most advanced EV!
www.newflyer.com
APTA-2048
Senior Member
BYD also has an artic, but the experience with those seem mixed at best. Los Angeles bought some of them four years ago and only now are they apparently going into serviceYou can buy one. The XE60 exists but the maximum range offered is the 186 mile model compared to the 254 mile for the XE40. That is only 73% of the range. They would be more suited for rush hour runs like 941 Keele, 953 Steeles East or 985B Sheppard East.
When the TTC did the test, they estimated that only around 70% of the actual capacity is usable for service. TTC indicates their current XE40s have a 400kWh capacity but NFI offers up to 520 kWh models now. A 30% improvement. That puts the best new XE60s around 10-20 miles less than the existing 5-year-old XE40s. They are differently not suitable for all-day routes.
Reference:
TTC eBus Study: Final Results
Updated April 10, 2022 at 10:30pm: Minor typos fixed. Bus order size for eBuses by TTC corrected. Reference to use of pantographs for charging on TTC buses corrected. Updated April 18, 2022 at 2:50…Xcelsior CHARGE NG™ - New Flyer | North America’s Bus Leader
Xcelsior CHARGE NG™ is New Flyer’s next generation battery-electric, zero-emission bus. Learn more about our most advanced EV!
drum118
Superstar
Indianapolis IndyGo has BYD (RIDE) 60' for their 2 of 3 BRT Lines now in service that required extra charging stations along the first one RED that open in 2019. The 3rd one BLUE opens in 2027.
A few place had BYD (RIDE) removed their buses from their systems for various reasons.
Mind_the_gap
Active Member
This is for @APTA-2048
You really got me scratching my head when you asked me about Finland's BYDs...
I'll provide you with a better explanation now - the only reason we have so many BYDs is because unlike Sweden, we're such a tiny market that for a while BYD and Yutong were the only manufacturers of electric buses willing to establish a proper supply chain network. MAN has a big network in Sweden, but doesn't exist in Finland. Solaris will become more prevalent. I don't know what VDL's situation is currently. Volvo wasn't a player at the time, and we have a bad history with Scania who drove our domestic body-builder out of business (Lahden Autokori).
The issue seemed to have something to do with the availability of dual rear-axle city BEBs.
For what it's worth, the Yutongs seem to be fairing alot better than the BYDs from what I've read.
Sorry to go off-topic.
You really got me scratching my head when you asked me about Finland's BYDs...
I'll provide you with a better explanation now - the only reason we have so many BYDs is because unlike Sweden, we're such a tiny market that for a while BYD and Yutong were the only manufacturers of electric buses willing to establish a proper supply chain network. MAN has a big network in Sweden, but doesn't exist in Finland. Solaris will become more prevalent. I don't know what VDL's situation is currently. Volvo wasn't a player at the time, and we have a bad history with Scania who drove our domestic body-builder out of business (Lahden Autokori).
The issue seemed to have something to do with the availability of dual rear-axle city BEBs.
For what it's worth, the Yutongs seem to be fairing alot better than the BYDs from what I've read.
Sorry to go off-topic.
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turini2
Active Member
It's very interesting to see this from across the pond - some bus manufacturers here are going from strength to strength with the growth in BEB and FCEB in Europe.
But when London's fleet is nearly 9,000 buses (about 1,400 now electric), Paris is around 5,000 ... it's just a completely different level of numerical scale, where only New York can compete. The protectionist mindset in both Canada and the States doesn't help either - definitely drives up cost and lowers quality.
I also find it interesting that manufacturers are fighting back against Yutong/BYD/others by simply using their batteries in their existing bus designs. Alexander Dennis with a BYD battery pack was much more reliable than a BYD built bus...
(Toyota and Ballard are also trying to do the same with fuel cells - Toyota now owns a Portuguese bus manufacturer!)
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APTA-2048
Senior Member
This is some really neat insight. I guess BYD was there at the right time with the right product.
Will be interesting to see how all the electric buses fair over time over there. My fear here is getting too many at once and then having teething issues that impact service.
I definitely think we need to move toward electric buses, but I’m a little apprehensive about moving too quickly. The TTC’s report still outlined areas of concern based on the trial buses.