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TTC: Cherry Street reconstruction and streetcar trackage (City of Toronto/TTC, U/C)

DSC said:
The 504 King track dates from 19th century, some of the residences have been there for years, some are fairly new but the track-work at King & Sumach/Cherry (used by 514) is newer than any neighbouring homes.
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And that's my point. These people bought new housing beside a new streetcar track, neither were there before.
 
Admiral Beez said:
And that's my point. These people bought new housing beside a new streetcar track, neither were there before.
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So that makes some kind of difference both were built at the same time. It doesn't mater which came first if you want to live near a streetcar loop or curve you should excpect some noise from it.
 
EastYorkTTCFan said:
So that makes some kind of difference both were built at the same time. It doesn't mater which came first if you want to live near a streetcar loop or curve you should excpect some noise from it.
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As far as I know, the main problem area is at King/Sumach when streetcars are turning. The houses on the north side of King Street east of Sumach were built about a decade ago, the condo building on SE corner of King and Sumach was built about 5 years ago, the two houses on east side of Sumach just south of King are older. Then there are the homes on the 'stub' of Sumach just east of the portion of Sumach which has the tracks - they are from 19th century. The complaints seem to be about the squealing on the special-track-work at King and Sumach; ALL the homes in that area pre-date the construction (if not the planning) of the Sumach/Cherry streetcar track. That said, EastYorkTTCFan is right - one should be able to live beside a TTC track (of any age) and not have EXCESSIVE noise. The TTC can (and has) installed lubrication points (water or grease) to reduce squeal, they could do so here if other cheaper remedies fail.
 
Did someone tell that chump with his amateur basement recording studio about the subway tunnel Tory and Kesmaat are trying to ram through their neighbourhood on the other side of the street? He's mad now...
 
Admiral Beez said:
True enough.

There are some good points made here. The tracks are designed for the new streetcars, and the tracks are not "worked in".

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The tracks are designed for STREETCARS. Until all of the old ones are gone, the track is built to a known standard that can handle both.

I'm not sure that I buy that the track needs to be "worked in" very much, either. A very lot of the curves through the intersection are flange-bearing, and will never get much more worn in than they are already. Unless they somehow think that the elastomeric coating of the rails will somehow soften over time.

It may be that the TTC has to bite the bullet and install flange greasers in the area.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 
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smallspy said:
The tracks are designed for STREETCARS. Until all of the old ones are gone, the track is built to a known standard that can handle both.

I'm not sure that I buy that the track needs to be "worked in" very much, either. A very lot of the curves through the intersection are flange-bearing, and will never get much more worn in than they are already. Unless they somehow think that the elastomeric coating of the rails will somehow soften over time.

It may be that the TTC has to bite the bullet and install flange greasers in the area.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
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Might sound cheap n dirty, but what about laying down a bunch of tar. I mean like in every joint and alongside the rail. The vehicle will still be riding up on its flange, but no doubt it'd make less of a holler since the vibrations would be muffled some.
 
smallspy said:
The tracks are designed for STREETCARS. Until all of the old ones are gone, the track is built to a known standard that can handle both.

I'm not sure that I buy that the track needs to be "worked in" very much, either. A very lot of the curves through the intersection are flange-bearing, and will never get much more worn in than they are already. Unless they somehow think that the elastomeric coating of the rails will somehow soften over time.

It may be that the TTC has to bite the bullet and install flange greasers in the area.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
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The problem location that I see is where the the southbound cars have to make a sharp almost 90 degree turn onto the ROW coming off King St. Got to thank Transportation Department for this, as it wasn't what TTC wanted in the first place, but cars had to came first.

The new cars do squeal, but no where close to the current fleet.

All rail joints are welded and grin down before installing the rails. Where the 300' are jointed together, they are welded and ground down and this includes connection to switches.

TTC Spicing/welding rail into 300' length and connecting them together
 
Admiral Beez said:
Maybe we should have gone to rubber wheels?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber-tyred_trams

Bombardier makes it now https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_Guided_Light_Transit
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And how much would it have cost to retrofit the entirety of our network to handle them?

And to say nothing about signing up for a technology that requires a single-supplier for all of the items from the rail to the vehicle...

44 North said:
Might sound cheap n dirty, but what about laying down a bunch of tar. I mean like in every joint and alongside the rail. The vehicle will still be riding up on its flange, but no doubt it'd make less of a holler since the vibrations would be muffled some.
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And what do you do when the streetcars die where they are because they no longer have the ability to complete their electrical circuits? The rail is one half of what makes a streetcar run.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 
What's the physics of the noise -- is it coming primarily from the wheels, or the rail? If it's the former, a future solution might be to put some sort of dampers on the wheels, such as small rubber wheels that contact the flanges perpendicular to the wheel and dampen the vibration of the wheel itself (this likely could not be retrofit to the existing stock, however). If it's the rails, would resting them on some sort of more flexible rail bed or ties help?
 
Tulse said:
What's the physics of the noise -- is it coming primarily from the wheels, or the rail? If it's the former, a future solution might be to put some sort of dampers on the wheels, such as small rubber wheels that contact the flanges perpendicular to the wheel and dampen the vibration of the wheel itself (this likely could not be retrofit to the existing stock, however). If it's the rails, would resting them on some sort of more flexible rail bed or ties help?
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The physics of the noise is that one of the two wheels on each axle is forced to skip on the railhead, as they are trying to travel around uneven distances (outside of a curve is further than the inside). The wheels are tapered which helps, but no amount of tapering can totally get around the problem - at least not without causing new problems.

There are a number of things that can be done to mitigate the problem - lubrication of the wheel-rail interface is a very common one, as is providing some level of dampening within the wheel (resilient wheels) or rail. In the case of Toronto, all three are done, although there are some intersections without lubrication systems and others that have not yet been rebuilt with elastomeric coatings of the rail.

Another item that helps is to add skirting to the trucks, thereby preventing some level of the noise to escape from the car. This is being done with the Flexitites and accounts for part of the reason why they are quieter around curves.

And there are still other things that can be done - radial wheelsets/trucks, independent/stub axles, smaller wheels - but these are more within the realm of railcar design, and can't really be retrofitted to existing equipment.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 
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