TTC: Automatic Train Control and Subway Platform Screen Doors

[aquateam]

The answer seems to be no. The line as a whole will turn on ATC all at once. There is no piecemeal implementation (tendered at least) that would allow it to operate on just a single portion.

This is why the assumption of platform doors (and many support pylons were moved from platform edge as a result) was eliminated from station designs.

I thought they were removed as a cost-cutting measure. In principle, I think it should be possible to switch to from ATC to manual mode and vice-versa when the train leaves/approaches Downsview (now Sheppard West) station, but there may be complications that I'm not aware of.

I sincerely hope that the new sections of tunnel have signalling equipment that is ATC compatible, and that they will not be resignalling it within 2 years of it opening...

 

[rbt]

I thought they were removed as a cost-cutting measure.

No. Removing them actually increased the cost of the station.

They had not included the newer signalling as part of the original station package, so that would have been an increase, but it's also going to happen anyway (increase incurred in re-signalling budget IIRC, not the Spadina extension budget).

 

[W. K. Lis]

Thought that the Spadina extension, while not putting in the platform screen doors, there is a rough-in included so that installation would be easier than the older parts of the line.

 

[rbt]

Thought that the Spadina extension, while not putting in the platform screen doors, there is a rough-in included so that installation would be easier than the older parts of the line.

Well, they'll just be edge doors the same as the rest. The platform will be built to support their weight.

One of the benefits of having doors for 100% of the life of the station is you can reduce the length/strength of horizontal beams by putting vertical supports at the platform edge.

 

[CDL.TO]

It's far from optimal, but the Jubilee Line in London operated with Platform Edge Doors and manual operation (no ATC) for around 12 years (1999-2011).

 

[nfitz]

It's far from optimal, but the Jubilee Line in London operated with Platform Edge Doors and manual operation (no ATC) for around 12 years (1999-2011).

I'd thought I'd read, that it does delay service somewhat, as the trains have to be more careful stopping, and they wouldn't do any more until they did have ATC. So ATC is running now, and still no more doors?

The doors are only at the 11 of the lines 27 stations that opened in the 1990s. I don't believe they've been installed in any stations opened since then, including the Wood Lane and Heathrow 5 tube stations, about 20 or so DLR stations, or the new stations on the extension of the former East London tube line.

The lack of any follow-up on this by Transport for London, and nothing pending as far as I know, suggests to me, that this isn't a great example for others to follow.

 

[georgevicbell]

I'm wondering what the prospects for platform doors are once ATC is done...I would assume that the downtown U would get them first, but of those how many stations is it actually possible to put them in? I imagine some requirements would be:

- Multiple platform exits (ie not dundas) in case of a fire
- Ability to install them (power, structural)
- Ventilation issues

 

[cplchanb]

I'm wondering what the prospects for platform doors are once ATC is done...I would assume that the downtown U would get them first, but of those how many stations is it actually possible to put them in? I imagine some requirements would be:

- Multiple platform exits (ie not dundas) in case of a fire
- Ability to install them (power, structural)
- Ventilation issues

from the way its going now with ttc, Id be surprised if our children will see this dream realized

 

[W. K. Lis]

[video=youtube_share;ayZKWMpjjVw]http://youtu.be/ayZKWMpjjVw[/video]

 

[ehlow]

I'm wondering what the prospects for platform doors are once ATC is done...I would assume that the downtown U would get them first, but of those how many stations is it actually possible to put them in? I imagine some requirements would be:

- Multiple platform exits (ie not dundas) in case of a fire
- Ability to install them (power, structural)
- Ventilation issues

I'm hoping they will just do one station at a time, starting at the busiest, Yonge-Bloor, and working their way down the list over time. Even after only a few stations have them, it should be worth it since these stations are so packed people could accidentally fall.

 

[BurlOak]

I'm hoping they will just do one station at a time, starting at the busiest, Yonge-Bloor, and working their way down the list over time. Even after only a few stations have them, it should be worth it since these stations are so packed people could accidentally fall.

Also, if the subway has to slow down at all busy stations due to crowded platforms, it is best that they not slow down at all at the most busiest. It is really one (or a few) stations whose dwell time restrict the entire network.

 

[ehlow]

Also, if the subway has to slow down at all busy stations due to crowded platforms, it is best that they not slow down at all at the most busiest. It is really one (or a few) stations whose dwell time restrict the entire network.

That's true.. but I'm not sure how much platform doors would reduce dwell time.. how would it?

Usually I find 70% of people on the train get off, then it fills up completely again at Yonge-Bloor. Personally I find that it's the volume of people getting on & off that makes dwell time long there. The same amount of people would still have to get on & off with platform doors installed.

 

[BurlOak]

That's true.. but I'm not sure how much platform doors would reduce dwell time.. how would it?

Usually I find 70% of people on the train get off, then it fills up completely again at Yonge-Bloor. Personally I find that it's the volume of people getting on & off that makes dwell time long there. The same amount of people would still have to get on & off with platform doors installed.

Platform doors would not reduce dwell time, but they could decrease the deceleration time since train could come more quickly into the stations. This is a more important factor for stations with higher dwell time (i.e. more passengers).

 

[aquateam]

That's true.. but I'm not sure how much platform doors would reduce dwell time.. how would it?

Usually I find 70% of people on the train get off, then it fills up completely again at Yonge-Bloor. Personally I find that it's the volume of people getting on & off that makes dwell time long there. The same amount of people would still have to get on & off with platform doors installed.

It would reduce dwell time in two ways. Firstly, it would allow the train to enter the station faster instead of coming to a crawl (to ensure no one is on the tracks). Secondly, because of the doors, people would know where to line up to prepare to board the train, instead of standing where a door could potentially open and preventing people from exiting the train.

Personally I think the benefits might be a bit limited. Montreal has markings on the platform to let people know where the doors will stop, and that doesn't seem to stop oblivious people from standing right on top of the big yellow arrow pointing right at them, indicating the flow of passengers that they are about to block.

 

[Jonny5]

It would reduce dwell time in two ways. Firstly, it would allow the train to enter the station faster instead of coming to a crawl (to ensure no one is on the tracks). Secondly, because of the doors, people would know where to line up to prepare to board the train, instead of standing where a door could potentially open and preventing people from exiting the train.

Personally I think the benefits might be a bit limited. Montreal has markings on the platform to let people know where the doors will stop, and that doesn't seem to stop oblivious people from standing right on top of the big yellow arrow pointing right at them, indicating the flow of passengers that they are about to block.

Since when do trains slow down when entering stations? They only enter slowly if there is a temporary speed restriction due to construction, or a permanent on from track design; or from a signal at or in the station that says to slow down or stop. Platform doors won't change those things.