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TTC: Automatic Train Control and Subway Platform Screen Doors

Forget the screens - with the TTCs present upkeep, they will be filthy in a matter of a week and probably never cleaned. This is a bad idea in the making and the money most certainly shouldnt be wasted on them.

p5
 
A dumb Yankee would think: sure, our subways need screen doors. We've got all them mosquitos and black flies up here, y'know
 
A Toronto Star article from today

TTC eyes doors at subway tracks


Official says study has been in works and not result of people falling or pushed off platform

May 25, 2008 04:30 AM
Paul Moloney
Staff Reporter

Potentially lethal tumbles onto subway tracks could be a thing of the past if the Toronto Transit Commission opts to install safety doors on the edge of subway platforms.

The TTC is in the process of hiring a consultant to report within 18 months on costs and benefits of installing the safety devices – used on some other subway systems – in all 69 existing stations and the six new ones to be built for the extension to York University.

The study has been in the works for months and was not a direct response to recent incidents where people have fallen or been pushed onto the tracks, TTC vice-chair Joe Mihevc said.

But the incidents emphasize the need to look hard at safety upgrades.

On Wednesday, a 46-year-old man reported being pushed onto the tracks at College station. He climbed back onto the platform and sustained minor injuries. Meanwhile, police have released a photo of the suspect.

Two weeks ago, Theresa Kelly tripped and fell onto the tracks at Spadina station. She managed to roll into a small alcove under the platform moments before a train pulled in. Kelly, 46, suffered a gash on her head, broken ribs and a hip injury.

Mihevc said safety doors could make people more confident using the subway, particularly when it's crowded.

"This technology is very good in a crowd-control situation," he said yesterday. "I think all of us know how uncomfortable it feels to be standing on the edge knowing a train is coming in your direction.

"Is there value in looking at it? Yes there is. Having doors there helps with safety and helps with the perception of safety as well."

First, though, the TTC must install a new signal system, a $342-million project to be completed by 2016 on the Yonge-University-Spadina line. It would allow precise train stops so the train doors could line up with platform doors.

The doors would allow easier boarding because passengers would know where to line up, and would block litter from blowing on to the tracks, causing fires.

However, it won't come cheap or quick, said TTC chair Adam Giambrone.

"Subway platform doors cost about $6 million a station and cannot be implemented until 2012, at the earliest, when the first phase of automatic train control will be in place between Union and Eglinton," Giambrone said.

The entire Yonge-University-Spadina line will have automatic control by 2016 but the Bloor-Danforth line will have to wait until the early 2020s, Giambrone estimated.

Mihevc said it might make sense to phase in the safety doors, station by station, starting with those that have narrow platforms such as St. George.

"It's still very preliminary," Mihevc said. "We're not saying that this is the way to go. We want to look at costs ... at effectiveness."

Edge doors are being designed for the Spadina extension to York University, slated for completion by 2015. But much depends on funds available, said former TTC chair Howard Moscoe, noting safety doors were initially in the $1 billion Sheppard line but scratched to save money.


One issue I can see with installing platform doors is plans to add a seventh shorter car to trains to increase capasity. The platform doors might not be able to line up properly if the trains are extended after the platform doors are installed.
 
Subway barriers a long way off

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/588204

Is this the TTC really this far behind?
I personally think the barriers are fantastic as I've experienced them in two cities now (both were very different systems). I only had the NYC subway to compare the TTC to before but both are so hopelessly outdated it seems as if they'll never be remotely modern. I wonder how long until real-time arrival info, a unified station announcement system, barriers, a modern payment system (ie. swipe in with your cell phone) and my favourite, heated seats will arrive in TO? I don't mind the lack of cell phone or digital tv service but that's coming for rogers/fido customers at least soon.
 
I guess they arrived at the 15-yr mark by assuming PSDs won't be installed until the entire system's signalling has been upgraded, but if they're really dedicated to it, I see no reason why they have to wait for BD to have ATC before they install the doors on the YUS, and they can certainly build the DRL with ATC and PSD from the get go when/if it's built (assuming they have the will to spend the money on it, that is).

As for the other items on the "wish list":
real-time arrival info: isn't this supposed to be coming soon? like at least within the next couple of years?
a unified station announcement system: I thought they already have this, at least that's what I remember from the last time I was back in TO :confused:
a modern payment system (ie. swipe in with your cell phone): this is probably the most important measure. No need for fancy things like cell phones or watches, a simple smartcard system would suffice, really. The hope is once the rest of GTA finally have Presto up and running, TTC will finally be compelled to follow suit one day, hopefully when at least some of us would still be around..
heated seats: Seriously, this would be the one thing that I don't care for
 
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a unified station announcement system: I thought they already have this, at least that's what I remember from the last time I was back in TO

Whenever there's a stoppage it seems as if everyone gets a different story depending on which train and platform they happen to be on and when service will resume... the TTC does a very poor job sending out a consistent message. Also it would be nice if each train clearly announced each stop in exactly the same manner, have simple, pre-recorded messages to announce on the platforms that a train is arriving and to announce the next station when on the train. Subway trains in Korea also have digital systems showing where you are on the subway map and what stops are next, the platforms also have monitors showing how long until the next train arrives... not a big deal when the train comes every few minutes but when you're transferring and you step off the train and see you have a good 4 minutes to get to the next platform you don't have to go crazy trying to get there.. then again when it shows the next train is about to arrive it's quite hectic lol.

a modern payment system (ie. swipe in with your cell phone): this is probably the most important measure. No need for fancy things like cell phones or watches, a simple smartcard system would suffice, really. The hope is once the rest of GTA finally have Presto up and running, TTC will finally be compelled to follow suit one day, hopefully when at least some of us would still be around..

A smartcard system would be ideal. It's gone one step further in Korea where you can have a virtual smart card on your cell phone (one less thing to carry around) and it can be used in taxi cabs, buses, the subway and numerous retailers (very handy at convenience stores, no more annoying change). You of course can just use the card itself if you'd rather not have it on your cell phone, it's just really handy. The closest thing we have in Canada is the esso speedpass and other similar services... if they could only get together and come up with one standard payment service and integrate it on ALL public transit life would be so much better. GO Transit could get in on the act with kiosks on the platform saving you from having to lineup to get your ticket.

heated seats: Seriously, this would be the one thing that I don't care for

Korea doesn't heat a lot of their subway stations and platforms (energy saving, and the winter is quite short) so they're quite nice here :)
 
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Whenever there's a stoppage it seems as if everyone gets a different story depending on which train and platform they happen to be on and when service will resume... the TTC does a very poor job sending out a consistent message.
Oh I misunderstood this one then.. but I think for emergency messages made by station staff like those, it is acceptable for less consistency (though recently I did start hearing automated messages of this sort in the Boston subway, made by a computer voice).
Also it would be nice if each train clearly announced each stop in exactly the same manner, have simple, pre-recorded messages to announce on the platforms that a train is arriving and to announce the next station when on the train.
That's what I was referring to. Sheppard had them from the get-go, YUS trains had these since 2-3 years ago, and I think BD also had these recorded starting last year.
Subway trains in Korea also have digital systems showing where you are on the subway map and what stops are next,
HK and some lines in NYC have these too, but truly, they aren't that necessary as long as the station names are displayed on an LED. TTC buses and streetcars have these now, and I would believe the next generation of subway trains will also come with them plus possibly retrofitting existing trains too (at least the T1s)
the platforms also have monitors showing how long until the next train arrives... not a big deal when the train comes every few minutes but when you're transferring and you step off the train and see you have a good 4 minutes to get to the next platform you don't have to go crazy trying to get there.. then again when it shows the next train is about to arrive it's quite hectic lol.
http://urbantoronto.ca/showthread.php?t=8071&highlight=train (I remember there was another thread about the displays for subway, but couldn't find it)

A smartcard system would be ideal. It's gone one step further in Korea where you can have a virtual smart card on your cell phone (one less thing to carry around) and it can be used in taxi cabs, buses, the subway and numerous retailers (very handy at convenience stores, no more annoying change). You of course can just use the card itself if you'd rather not have it on your cell phone, it's just really handy.
Yes, indeed, with the system, implementation, variety of forms and applications having been pioneered by HK.
The closest thing we have in Canada is the esso speedpass and other similar services... if they could only get together and come up with one standard payment service and integrate it on ALL public transit life would be so much better. GO Transit could get in on the act with kiosks on the platform saving you from having to lineup to get your ticket.
http://urbantoronto.ca/showthread.php?t=4286&highlight=presto
Look forward to it. Barring further delays, it should roll out in the next couple of years.

Korea doesn't heat a lot of their subway stations and platforms (energy saving, and the winter is quite short) so they're quite nice here :)
I am not sure what's your position here... so do you think it's good or not good to have these things? My opinion is, unless you're a seething subtropical city like HK (or I guess a subpolar, inner-continent city), there really is no significant need for A/C in stations, and heated/cooled seats are definitely excessive.
 
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Oh I misunderstood this one then.. but I think for emergency messages made by station staff like those, it is acceptable for less consistency (though recently I did start hearing automated messages of this sort in the Boston subway, made by a computer voice).

Really people just need to know when service will resume (if it's a brief delay) and where exactly they can go to catch a shuttle bus, this isn't always clearly communicated and it leads to mass confusion.

Yes, indeed, with the system, implementation, variety of forms and applications having been pioneered by HK.

The metropass is hopelessly outdated. Here the system (known as T-Money) is to my knowledge the only system in the world that can also be directly linked to your bank account (the government mandated all banks use this one system). There's no such thing as debit cards - the single biggest benefit is being able to get on the bus or subway without ever having to worry about tokens, or a monthly/weekly pass or exact change or having any money at all, it's so simple and streamlined.

I am not sure what's your position here... so do you think it's good or not good to have these things? My opinion is, unless you're a seething subtropical city like HK (or I guess a subpolar, inner-continent city), there really is no significant need for A/C in stations, and heated/cooled seats are definitely excessive.

I think it's extremely excessive to be honest, but they are nice lol. My first subway experience involved entering with my T-Money card (at less than $1 for the trip), knowing exactly when the next train would arrive, having each door stop perfectly in place in front of the barrier doors, walking on and sitting on heated seats while seeing exactly where I was on the subway line, where we were headed and what stop was next all in plain view... not too mention seeing everyone around me watching live tv on their phones. It made me embarrassed to think what Koreans must think when they step on the TTC.

All the frills are not needed, but the barriers, payment system and updated information systems are a must for public safety and to encourage use. 15 years for barriers? Is there no way to get each train to stop in the same place now? How hard could it be to lurch forward a few feet if the driver misses the mark? There was a fairly low-tech version of the barriers in Taipei (not full floor to ceiling like they have in Korea) that only went up about 5-feet that can be installed in each station in about a week's time and from what I understood were quite inexpensive... it would be really nice to have something like that in TO.
 
The metropass is hopelessly outdated. Here the system (known as T-Money) is to my knowledge the only system in the world that can also be directly linked to your bank account (the government mandated all banks use this one system). There's no such thing as debit cards - the single biggest benefit is being able to get on the bus or subway without ever having to worry about tokens, or a monthly/weekly pass or exact change or having any money at all, it's so simple and streamlined.
Actually most of the world's smartcard systems (HK's Octopus, London's Oyster/Barclaycard, Singapore's EZ-Link, Japan's many systems, and the Chicago Card) are / can be linked to bank/credit accounts. The hope is that when Presto finally rolls out and is adopted by the TTC, Torontonians can enjoy these benefits too. (Don't worry, NYC is just as behind as us on this)

All the frills are not needed, but the barriers, payment system and updated information systems are a must for public safety and to encourage use. 15 years for barriers? Is there no way to get each train to stop in the same place now? How hard could it be to lurch forward a few feet if the driver misses the mark? There was a fairly low-tech version of the barriers in Taipei (not full floor to ceiling like they have in Korea) that only went up about 5-feet that can be installed in each station in about a week's time and from what I understood were quite inexpensive... it would be really nice to have something like that in TO.
It would actually be fairly difficult, and definitely very time-consuming and inefficient, to have the train adjust its position manually once it stopped -- hence the general need to have ATO/ATC in place before PSD. Also, the half-height platform edge doors used in Taipei and many other cities use the same technology as full-height PSD, so they are not more "low-tech". Their main advantage isn't that they don't require as much precision, but that they don't enclose the entire station, so new ventilation/air-conditioning will not be necessary, a good way to lower the cost of new stations or especially of retrofitting old stations. HK's MTR has both PSD and PED, the latter being used for aboveground stations that are too difficult and costly to retrofit with full A/C.
 
Barriers are not needed anyways. People can also be pushed onto streets as well and run over by a car. That doesn't mean that there should be barriers along the sidewalk. Barriers are just a dumb knee-jerk reaction. You can't protect everybody from everything.
 
Barriers are not needed anyways. People can also be pushed onto streets as well and run over by a car. That doesn't mean that there should be barriers along the sidewalk. Barriers are just a dumb knee-jerk reaction. You can't protect everybody from everything.

true but it would probably improve passengers' sense of being safe.

does anybody know the cost of fitting a station with suicide barriers?
 
true but it would probably improve passengers' sense of being safe.

Yes, it might improve the "sense" of being safe, just like metal detectors and explosive sniffers etc. It really comes down to a cost/benefit analysis. It is the standard 80/20 rule. 80 percent of the benefit is derived from 20 percent of the cost, the last 20 percent of benefit costs 80% :rolleyes:
 

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