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TTC: Automatic Train Control and Subway Platform Screen Doors

Vancouver doesn't have staff at each station because it doesn't have turnstiles/fare gates.
If you have turnstiles or gates, you need to man each entrance to make sure people can get through if there is a malfunctioning gate.
That's one of the costs associated with adding turnstiles/gates to Skytrain - operations staff to man stations.
 
article

Cost may stall automated train plan
Commissioners split on $750M recommendation
Idea would increase rider capacity: Moscoe
Nov. 18, 2006. 01:00 AM
DAVID BRUSER
TRANSPORTATION REPORTER

TTC commissioner Peter Li Preti hears about automated trains and thinks:

Big cost. Wrong move.

Li Preti and other commissioners weighed in on TTC chair Howard Moscoe's controversial $750 million recommendation that a computer drive our subways.

"Every time he comes up with a bright idea, he comes up with a big cost, and the TTC cannot afford it," he said.

Li Preti would rather build new subway lines, and believes it's a service expansion plan the provincial and federal authorities would get behind quicker than driverless trains.

"I think building out is the only way we'll increase ridership, by reaching out to the 905 areas, to make sure people leave their cars at home and hop on the subway."

But Moscoe says that automated train service — where a computer system tells the train how far it is behind the train in front, when to slow down and when to speed up — would allow running trains closer together and, as a result, increase rider capacity by at least 40 per cent without sinking a shovel.

Automated trains are not new: Paris, Kuala Lumpur, Singapore, Turin, New York, Tokyo, San Francisco and Toulouse all have driverless metros, streetcars or Light Rapid Transit systems.

The TTC's Scarborough Rapid Transit uses it on its smaller, mostly ground-level trains. Vancouver's SkyTrain has been running without drivers, a derailment or collision since 1986, a spokesperson said.

In Montreal, Metro operations executive director Carl Desrosiers says the subway trains have been capable of automatic, semi-automatic and manual operation since radio signals sent through the rails began guiding the network in 1976.

Desrosiers also says the system is currently upgrading to the computer-driven automation Moscoe wants here in Toronto.

"If something doesn't go well, or there is a malfunction, the system would shut down, then the (human operator) can override it," Desrosiers said. "My own opinion, the system is much safer than the train operator. Very safe. Since 1976 we never had any derailments, any collisions."

Though TTC commissioner Joe Mihevc thinks money should first be spent on more buses, streetcars and Light Rapid Transit, he is confident automated train technology is safe.

Mihevc said he's seen how the Vancouver SkyTrain works and was impressed with its system of safeguards.

"It's almost like two computer systems operating at the same time verifying each other and if one doesn't verify the accuracy of the other, the system shuts down. (The train) doesn't move until it's corrected. It's very technologically sophisticated."

Both commissioner Brian Ashton and TTC interim general manager Gary Webster say that there is already $300 million in the capital budget to replace the 50-year-old conventional signalling system in the Yonge-University-Spadina line over the next several years. Under one scenario that money could be used to pay for automating the line. But both say such a plan would probably require provincial and federal money.

Meanwhile, Moscoe's recommendation sparked many Star readers to post their thoughts yesterday on the newspaper's website, thestar.com. From Silvio Di Nicola of Toronto: "Why don't we get an automated system to replace Howard Moscoe? A system that would stretch further north, west and east is where the money could be better spent. That would increase ridership and reduce gridlock on our streets."

And from Leo Gonzalez of East York: "I think it's a great idea if it really does increase capacity, as Moscoe suggests. Plus, the current arrangement of two operators per train seems quite wasteful; one operator per train is all that should be needed."

Under Moscoe's plan, the train driver would essentially become someone who sits at the front of the train and manually closes the doors once all commuters are aboard.

He or she would also presumably override the computer system when and if it malfunctions. But automation would antiquate the other employee — the guard — who under the current system manually opens and closes doors.

With one of the two subway staffers made extraneous by automation, Moscoe wants to create a rank of subway station masters in charge of improving service and beautification.

TTC commissioner Sandra Bussin wants both train automation and station masters.

"A lot of times, the things that seem different from the norm end up being popular," she said.

Train automation would also allow the TTC to operate two-way, all-night service on only one track — say, from 10 p.m. to 5:30 a.m. — as it could deftly navigate trains moving in opposite directions out of each other's way using short peripheral, or "cross-over" tracks that run off a main line about every 5 kilometres.

Commissioner Suzan Hall says she would rather spend money on Light Rapid Transit.

But commissioner Glenn De Baeremaeker said, "Howard (Moscoe) is bang on the money. (Automation) is the way of the future."

Meanwhile, commuter Brian Levine, a 48-year-old music industry consultant, told the Star's Matthew Chung he has safety concerns.

"An automated system obviously can't be as flexibly responsive to an emergency as a live driver," Levine said.
 
Li Preti would rather build new subway lines, and believes it's a service expansion plan the provincial and federal authorities would get behind quicker than driverless trains.

"I think building out is the only way we'll increase ridership, by reaching out to the 905 areas, to make sure people leave their cars at home and hop on the subway."

Another 905 subway builder. Why do we elect 416 councillors? People in the 905 aren't going to leave their car at home. It is a non-starter. Suburban neighbourhoods with their winding streets and backyards facing six lane arterial routes and plentiful parking lots isn't where you find a lot of transit users. The best you can expect is that they drive their beloved car to the GO station. They aren't going to hop on a subway line in the 905 and ride it all the way downtown either. The whole track exansion plan for the GO is to serve the 905 and it will do it far better than taking the TTC subway to the 905. Let GO service 905 to Toronto traffic... they can handle it better than subways.

Moscoe's plan will increase ridership because the Yonge line passengers will be less crowded thus luring more riders. In addition the Yonge line could be extended once Moscoe's idea has been implemented. New TTC construction should deal with capacity issues and speed more than it deals with trying to compete with GO busses and GO trains for the suburban commuter.

Maybe the goal of the Greater Toronto Transit Authority should be to take over the subway and integrate it into the GO network, and to handle fare harmonization. TTC and other local transit authorities would only look after busses and streetcars/trams. If an LRT ROW reaches capacity that would be reported to the GTTA and it would be their responsibility to do something about it. This would balance the fear that a GTTA taking over the whole TTC would be too 905 centric because a locally run TTC for busses, BRT, LRT would still remain under Toronto's control and be able to still drive the agenda for 416 priorities via LRT construction. It would offload the politically charged subway portfolio from a city council which really doesn't set the subway building agenda anyways because what the province is willing to pay for the province gets.
 
"Moscoe's plan will increase ridership because the Yonge line passengers will be less crowded thus luring more riders."

I'm sure such people do exist, but I've never met or heard of anyone who doesn't take the subway because it's too crowded. Expanding the system will lure more riders, although it is way more expensive.

"They aren't going to hop on a subway line in the 905 and ride it all the way downtown either."

Sure they will. By transit, I live 25km from Yonge & Bloor and I do it every day, as do thousands of other people in my area. 25km along Yonge = a subway to Elgin Mills, and 25km along Bloor = a subway to Mavis & Eglinton. GO would be better for most of them, of course, and we'd be stupid to build multiple subways out to the 905 and only then focus on GO.

"In addition the Yonge line could be extended once Moscoe's idea has been implemented."

Yeah...to the 905. Li Preti's not talking about Orangeville, at least, I hope not.
 
Sure they will. By transit, I live 25km from Yonge & Bloor and I do it every day, as do thousands of other people in my area. 25km along Yonge = a subway to Elgin Mills, and 25km along Bloor = a subway to Mavis & Eglinton. GO would be better for most of them, of course, and we'd be stupid to build multiple subways out to the 905 and only then focus on GO.

If there was fare integration and frequent GO services I doubt you would do it. The only reason someone getting on the subway at Don Mills would take the subway all the way to King St rather than switch to GO is a lack of frequent service and fare integration at Leslie/Oriole station. Does it really make sense to build subways due to inadequate GO services or does it make more sense to address the inadequate GO services head on? How many people would take the Yonge VIVA past Langstaff to the subway line if a train left Langstaff every 15 minutes to Union station with a stop at the Leslie Station, Eglinton, Castle Frank Station? I think the GO would absorb a huge portion of the traffic with fare integration and frequent service and such service could be provided at a fraction of the cost of a subway expansion into the 905.

"In addition the Yonge line could be extended once Moscoe's idea has been implemented."

Yeah...to the 905. Li Preti's not talking about Orangeville, at least, I hope not.

The point is that subway expension to improve transit in urban areas are off the radar compared to building subways running where BRT/LRT have not been tried, where GO service has not be fully improved, and roads are 7 or 8 lanes wide when turning lanes are factored in. That isn't very sound planning. And who voted for Li Preti? Did the people of Richmond Hill vote for Li Preti? Let subway extensions to the 905 be the 905's priority. How many 905 councillors would be campaigning for improved transit services in the core of the 416? Most GO stations in the 416 don't even see GO bus services after the trains stop running.
 
The idea I think is that at rush hour, Yonge is pretty crowded. By increasing rush hour capacity, I have no doubt that ridership will grow. How could a crowded subway not keep people from using it?
 
"Vancouver doesn't have staff at each station because it doesn't have turnstiles/fare gates.
If you have turnstiles or gates, you need to man each entrance to make sure people can get through if there is a malfunctioning gate.
That's one of the costs associated with adding turnstiles/gates to Skytrain - operations staff to man stations. "

But the TTC already has fare gate people, no?
The point is, right now, the trains have
1) Driver
2) Door opener and closer

With automation, they only seem to want to get rid of 1), but my point is they can get rid of both 1) and 2). There's no need for anyone at all down in the platform area, you just need people supervising the fare gates.You can then either lay off all the train workers to save some money, or reasign them to other tasks.


"Meanwhile, commuter Brian Levine, a 48-year-old music industry consultant, told the Star's Matthew Chung he has safety concerns.
"An automated system obviously can't be as flexibly responsive to an emergency as a live driver," Levine said."

Idiot. Computerized systems are far safer than drivers. The 95 accident was caused by human error. SkyTrain has a perfect safety record. Sure, there have been jumpers, but trains with drivers still run over jumpers, since trains cannot stop instantly. Incidently, people in a central control room can control the trains manually in the even of an emergency.
 
I simply said people would take a subway downtown from Elgin Mills, not that we should build a subway out there to prove it.
 
here's one way of increasing capacity on the Yonge line - provide better, faster service from Bay/Sherbourne and police-enforced diamond lanes on the east-west streetcars at peak so downtown working East Yorkers like me are weaned off connecting at Bloor because we don't want to spend an extra 10 minutes per trip on the alternates.

It would also have the advantage of saving a ton of money upgrading the platform on the Bloor B-D line.
 
Ah, I thought you meant getting rid of all staff in the station and on the trains, not just the on-board staff.
 
TTC's Moscoe has big plans and says he's ready for a fight

JOHN BARBER


Mayor David Miller isn't the only one who thinks he just got a new mandate to escalate the battle against Queen's Park and Ottawa. Populist punching-bag Howard Moscoe, rebounding yet again at the polls after surviving an even heavier than usual pounding in office, promises to be just as tough in his perennial role as chairman of the TTC, a job from which he will never be dislodged by natural processes short of death.

The coming federal and provincial elections will be the arena. "If we don't secure some long-term funding for the TTC in that period, we're never going to do it," Councillor Moscoe said yesterday. "I will be the hit man."

That's always fun -- if not always effective.

At the same time, however, Mr. Moscoe is promising to use his hard-won experience over the years to make what he called "major changes to the system." Interpreting the recent election as a green light for his alleged meddling in the TTC, he's reaching even further into the nuts and bolts of the operation.

But his first effort, at least, is an intriguing proposition -- automated train control, a $750-million upgrade that would increase capacity of the Yonge line by 40 per cent, according to Mr. Moscoe, because it would permit trains to run closer together. Unlike other planned Moscovian meddles, this item does appear on the service's capital-budget wish list ("below the line," as they say). The perennial chairman is determined to pull it up.

He also wants the TTC to provide all-night train service and is proposing a new regime for doing track maintenance that, he claims, would save enough money to fund the reconstruction of "shoddy" stations. To supervise that job, he wants to appoint individual station masters who will be partly accountable to neighbourhood committees.

Another priority, which the chairman fondly believes can be funded wholly by corporate sponsorship, is "next-bus" technology: countdown clocks at every stop indicating when the next bus or streetcar will arrive.

A quick glance at the mayor's transit platform reveals no mention of any of Mr. Moscoe's latest priorities. Instead, the mayor's program centres on developing more dedicated rights-of-way for transit vehicles on suburban routes -- something that Councillor Joe Mihevc, who shepherded the current St. Clair Avenue streetcar project on behalf of the mayor, wants to be part of.

"I took it on the chin," Mr. Mihevc says, advancing his claim to a renewed appointment to the TTC, the corollary being that he has the experience to deal with coming battles. "I think I can provide comfort and support and insight into how to manage these things for other councillors."

Because they run mainly along wide arterial roads, the planned rights-of-way will likely prove less controversial than the St. Clair project. And due to fiscal constraints, they will likely be populated by diesel buses instead of electric streetcars. Realistically, there are three or four routes that could be operational by 2010: Yonge Street from Highway 7 to Finch Avenue (a joint project with York Region); Kingston Road from Victoria Park to Eglinton; Don Mills Road from Steeles Avenue south to the Danforth; and a temporary route from Downsview station to York University, planned as a stopgap until the Spadina subway is extended past York to Vaughan.

Like Mr. Moscoe, Mr. Mihevc also has his own "little agenda," which involves extending the St. Clair route to Jane Street, north to Eglinton Avenue, and west to the airport. One attraction is that the city already owns an extremely wide right-of-way along Eglinton through Etobicoke, which was originally reserved for an expressway.

"There would be no real-estate purchases," Mr. Mihevc said. "For a hundred million bucks, you're at the airport."

Alas, even such modest dreams are beyond the reach of the lowly commissioners, who remain totally dependent on unwilling senior governments to finance any significant capital works. And when it comes to determining priorities, those who pay get the say.

jbarber@globeandmail.com

© Copyright 2006 Bell Globemedia Publishing Inc. All Rights Reserved.
globeandmail.com and The Globe and Mail are divisions of Bell Globemedia Publishing Inc., 444 Front St. W., Toronto, Canada M5V 2S9
Phillip Crawley, Publisher
 
This is so ridiculous. The ideas are there... we just need some money. The money is there, but it's in the wrong hands (see $12 billion + federal surplus -- Toronto's 8% of that is a billion dollars)...
 
You cannot lay off the TTC employees, nor can you "demote them"..... Doing so would just lead to a strike, and likely cost more than it is worth. They could be phased out over time, but they should not count on savings.
 
Is it a demotion if they will continued to be paid the same? What if they were also reassigned to new tasks but not replaced when they left to gradually bring down the TTC workforce through attrition.

I know unions are ridiculous, but if people have been rendered obsolete as a result of technological change, it becomes unreasonable to continue to employ them.
 
I watched a group of three teens duck under the turnstiles at Sherbourne Station a few hours ago while the collector was in her glassed-in booth. She just shrugged and the teens laughed and ran down the stairs. I see this sort of stuff often.

What little is now done in the collector both, can be completely automated with ticketing machines and such outside the fare-paid area. Where we need TTC employees is out on the platforms, walking the vehciles and at the fare barriers assisting patrons, checking transfers...and not allowing people to duck under/over the turnstiles.

Some of the busy stations (ie. Union, Finch, Eglinton, etc.) could still have an "info" booth to help with travel info, maps, etc. I don't think automation of either the ticketing system nor the subway cars need to involve laying-off anyone.
 

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