Transit Fantasy Maps

[adrianaliu]

After making my video for GO ALRT I have deiced to make a map of what the possible station for the Northern and Southern Lines could be today. As far as I know the project never made it far enough for station locations to solidify so this is just my best guess for the most likely stops given a 2-3km stop spacing.

View attachment 607666

Geographic map with some stops given street names for reference.
View attachment 607667

wish we had actually went forward with something like this. a rem type-beat service filling an important gap in the transit network and potentially making transit competitive for suburb-to-suburb trips. to this day we are still talking about this sort of thing (407 transitway, the burlington-to-oshawa link discussed in the GGH RTP).

 

[micheal_can]

wish we had actually went forward with something like this. a rem type-beat service filling an important gap in the transit network and potentially making transit competitive for suburb-to-suburb trips. to this day we are still talking about this sort of thing (407 transitway, the burlington-to-oshawa link discussed in the GGH RTP).

This may have caused even more sprawl in Halton Region. Had we had the GO ALRT with good TOD, then we would have exactly what you speak of.

 

[ssiguy2]

The Milton-Midtown line should be priority number one. True crosstown Eglinton will never be. Toronto needs crosstown to go from one end of the Metro to the other doesn't require Union & serves hundreds of thousnds of more people & destintions. Most cities would give their left nut for such corridor & Toronto should prioritize it.

 

[JSF-1]

Made a map that shoes if the major projects of the 80's had been built as originally intended (Network 2011, GO ALRT, and the Etobicoke and Scarborough RT's). For the ERT and DRL I went with the outcome that they use ALRT trains since their proposed routes overlapped with ALRT and the Province believed it would be easier for both GO and the TTC to share the ALRT corridors and interline service where the routes overlap. Ultimately this means a couple of stations from the real plans are not on this map (2 from the DRL and 3 from the ERT). This map exposes the need for an extension of the Eglinton West Line to Kennedy since that is a massive gap in service across the middle of the city. As well I wonder if the Eglinton West line would even go to the Airport in this scenario since it would be served by both the ALRT Northern Line and Etobicoke RT and the UP (assuming it gets built as well).

 

[just east of the creek]

My attempt to reduce "conflict points" between freight and passenger rail in the GTA.

Existing track map of the GTA:
View attachment 603057

New Track Map
View attachment 603058
CPKC:
- 413 bypass west of Intermodal terminal in Vaughan
- 407 bypass east of Intermodal terminal, reconnects with existing CPKC mainline north of Pickering
- CPKC trains would still run through Milton GO. Split away from the existing Galt sub before reaching Lisgar.

CN:
- 407 bypass west of Intermodal terminal in Brampton
- Grade separate Doncaster diamond
- triple track Richmond Hill line north of the York sub (increase capacity for both CN & GO)

GO:
- Obtain Milton line
- obtain Midtown line from Lisgar GO to just east of Agincourt Yard
- Obtain Orangeville line. With ownership of the Milton line, GO can now run trains up to Mayfield Rd. in Brampton
- Richmond Hill line improvements, Doncaster Diamond grade separation, triple tracking north of the York sub, construct and redirect trains onto the Leaside Spur
- Obtain Bolton line up to Steeles Ave. North of the 407, triple track up to Bolton for increased capacity for both CPKC and GO.

The only "conflict points" remaining are;
- Trying to figure out how to connect the Midtown line with the LSE line. GO would have to construct a rail bridge parallel with CN's running to Pickering. GO would need to figure out how to triple track to Pickering GO. Not sure if there's space for that without interfering with CN.
- GO would still have to share the tracks with CPKC in Milton GO up until the 407. Unless they can figure out if there's space to run parallel running tracks such as with the LSE line.
- Track sharing with CN on the Richmond Hill line, north of the York sub. Triple track to add capacity
- Track sharing with CPKC on the Bolton line
- North of the 407, triple track up to Bolton to add capacity for both CPKC and GO

EDIT: Add Bolton line info

I had to drive to Lindsay today (commuter service by rail to Lindsay seems to have ended....some time ago) and I ended up on the 407 for a long chunk of the commute.

And I was thinking of the 407 rail bypass. The number of overpasses, underpasses that would need to be constructed, the amount of fill required to be moved for cuttings, embankments, and several bridges to be built underlines the cost of any endeavor such as this, no matter how much sense it may make on a map or in our discussions in these forums.

Compare that cost (billions) with the more incremental costs of improving signalling, adding capacity with additional track where needed, expropriating land where needed, improving infrastructure to further separate rail from road. I could see where i might sit as a director in any of these two companies and viewing these concepts, unless the province and the feds come along and wrote me a sweetheart deal.

As for nationalization? That is a pipe dream. I think the last nationalization of a private business in Canada was in the 70"s - potash. Which then went private again in the 90's. Both of these companies are multi-national Class 1 railways and any thoughts on nationalization would be a political nightmare. Buying up the shares would involve a market capitalization of almost 100 billion plus for each railway (both CPKC and CN) (as you would have to pay above market value) and be a political nightmare with the international ramifications. The whole concept is just not worth it. (By comparison Trans Mountain came in at 4.5 billion)

I think you can draw up scenarios where this makes sense - better through put times, better access to existing and new freight handling yards, increased GO and VIA capabilities, but costwise I am not sure you can get the concept off the ground.

Lindsay is a bit like Palmerston - an amazing historical railway hub, that just vanished as roads gave better and more timely access, and new generations of Canadians fell in love with their 49 Ford.

 

[Bojaxs]

As for nationalization? That is a pipe dream.

Where did I mention anything about nationalization in my post?

 

[just east of the creek]

Where did I mention anything about nationalization in my post?

You did not. It popped up in another conversation.

On another unrelated note, a friend told me that CPKC is pretty pleased to date with their hydrogen loco program. Whatever our thoughts are about the utility of hydrogen in the long term, exploring the technology is exciting and useful.

 

[micheal_can]

Over on the Pickering Airport thread, some have been trying to argue the need for it for a while. My thought on it was

We shall see if the CPC will keep it going. But, when HSR opens, it will make a Pickering Airport for scheduled flights redundant. If we ever built HSR like they built the railways in the 1870s, we would not need nearly as many airports as we have now.

https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threa...nsport-canada-gtaa-proposed.4855/post-2164126

This was in reference to how we built a railway across the country to link everyone. What if we did? What if we went gang busters and built an HSR from coast to coast, connecting all major cities on the mainland of Canada? What if we built it to have an average speed of 300km/hr?

The 1100km QC-W corridor could be traveled in under 4 hours.
Toronto to Halifax (1800km) would be done in 6 hours.
Toronto to Vancouver (4400km) would take 15 hours.

The number of flights within Canada could drop significantly. Most regional flights would no longer be faster than ground travel. IIRC, there are 5 flights between Toronto - Vancouver. While it is not close enough to cancel them all, they might be able to be reduced. All SWO flights in and out of Pearson could be canceled. Same with flights to Ottawa and Montreal.

We used to do nation building things. Sadly, we squabble over nation building ventures.

 

[Willybru21]

What if we went gang busters and built an HSR from coast to coast, connecting all major cities on the mainland of Canada?

Nobody would ride it because the country would go bankrupt doing so and there would be no money to operate trains on it.

 

[micheal_can]

Nobody would ride it because the country would go bankrupt doing so and there would be no money to operate trains on it.

Did the country go bankrupt building the Transcontinental line in Canada?

 

[Willybru21]

Did the country go bankrupt building the Transcontinental line in Canada?

I had a response written out for this but I’m not even going to send it, there is no point in arguing with someone about the difference between the transcontinental railway and transcontinental high speed rail.

 

[micheal_can]

I had a response written out for this but I’m not even going to send it, there is no point in arguing with someone about the difference between the transcontinental railway and transcontinental high speed rail.

I get why you and others may think that would happen. That thinking is why nothing gets done these days. Seriously, when was the last time we did something that was a massive undertaking and benefited the entire country?

 

[Willybru21]

I get why you and others may think that would happen. That thinking is why nothing gets done these days. Seriously, when was the last time we did something that was a massive undertaking and benefited the entire country?

“We got a man on the moon in the 60’s, we should build an elevator to Jupiter it would benefit all of us, scientists get nothing done these days” this is what you sound like, taking a already massive feat and assuming something 500x more ambitious would be just as easy and cheap to do.

 

[micheal_can]

“We got a man on the moon in the 60’s, we should build an elevator to Jupiter it would benefit all of us, scientists get nothing done these days” this is what you sound like, taking a already massive feat and assuming something 500x more ambitious would be just as easy and cheap to do.

Actually, it would be we got a man on the moon, so now lets go to Mars.

I know this would neither be easy or cheap. If we use the California HSR figures, it is just under $1B a km. So,it would cost at least $6.6 Trillion dollars. I am going out on a limb and saying it would likely be over $10T. In today's dollars, the CPR Transcontinental route would have cost $1,624,741,176.47,or about $1.6 billion.

$52,500,000 in 1880 → 2024 | Inflation Calculator

The 2.41% inflation rate means $52,500,000 in 1880 is equivalent to $1,624,741,176.47 today. This inflation calculator uses the official US consumer price index published by the Department of Labor.

www.officialdata.org

Canadian Pacific Railway - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Willybru21]

My entire 1992 Northern Toronto Line Feasibility Study series of maps is done:

Ignore the fact that I forgot to change the titles and descriptions on 2 of the maps