Transit Fantasy Maps

[Leo_Chan]

Sounds like a dumb question, but what's the best free software available for drawing professional transit maps?

Do you want to have satellite overlay or not? If yes, then use Google Earth and the Path Tool with Markers. If you don't, the use Paint.net or GIMP. I know there is free software out there designed for drawing transit lines, but that's not necessarily necessary.

 

[macookie]

http://i.imgur.com/oaXvg8J.png
yo guys heres a map I made of the transit network I think we should be working towards in downtown. yeah most of the new streetcar lines would run in separate ROW particularly those in the port lands and east bayfront. king street would also have dedicated streetcar lanes and free ride from dufferin to sumach, lakeshore blvd west would have streetcar ROW as well. 501 would have branches going on lakeshore, queensway and then queen and kingston rd on the east end. I imagine that there would be an infrequent bus service that parallels the relief line to provide local service to queen and roncesvales kinda like 97 yonge does today. If you have any questions I'm willing to answer.

I love your map. The only 2 things I would do... given it's a fantasy is... split the current Yonge-University Line into two new lines thereby providing a 2nd relief line in the downtown....

#1... I would make the 501 street car line a subway.... from Spadina on the University Line down looping into the South Core on Bremmer Blvd... and connecting it to King station (via Yonge)
#2... I would then loop the remaining line on University northward curving into Summerhill station and looping it downwards on either Jarvis or Parliament and then connecting it into Union Station... so that the Midtown Station can take some of the load off of Yonge Line.

 

[WislaHD]

I love your map. The only 2 things I would do... given it's a fantasy is... split the current Yonge-University Line into two new lines thereby providing a 2nd relief line in the downtown....

#1... I would make the 501 street car line a subway.... from Spadina on the University Line down looping into the South Core on Bremmer Blvd... and connecting it to King station (via Yonge)
#2... I would then loop the remaining line on University northward curving into Summerhill station and looping it downwards on either Jarvis or Parliament and then connecting it into Union Station... so that the Midtown Station can take some of the load off of Yonge Line.

Instead of looping University across Summerhill then down Jarvis/Parliament....

What if... at Summerhill we sent University line on the Midtown Rail Corridor deep into Scarborough!

 

[macookie]

M

Instead of looping University across Summerhill then down Jarvis/Parliament....

What if... at Summerhill we sent University line on the Midtown Rail Corridor deep into Scarborough!

nah.... it would be easier for the Midtown Rail Corridor to be used by GO for an RER into Scarborough once the 407 rail bypass is built and CPR no longer runs trains on the Midtown line.

 

[Johnny Au]

Do you want to have satellite overlay or not? If yes, then use Google Earth and the Path Tool with Markers. If you don't, the use Paint.net or GIMP. I know there is free software out there designed for drawing transit lines, but that's not necessarily necessary.

There's also QGIS as well.

 

[WislaHD]

@BurlOak and I have been working on a Pearson-Scarborough Line in the Scarborough Subway Extension thread. I think it's developed enough to repost here.

Here is the Google Maps Link: https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer?mid=1u8nMLrhYu5Z0KFBPHiFWrhzPqKI

It is envisioned to be running SkyTrain elevated, share a bridge with the Relief Line across the Don River, connect with the Unilever site (transfer with Relief Line) and with STC, and is reminiscent of the old plans from the 1980s of running elevated rapid transit east-west at Union.

This map really looks like a developed rapid transit network for Toronto if you ask me.

 

[Tuck]

^Looks phenomenal. I wish this was what we were getting. Any plans to add Eglinton East? Jane LRT?

Ideally at the airport, the two lines should terminate in the same place - i.e at that new rail terminal they want to build.

EDIT: Oh Eglinton East is there, nvm.

 

[OneCity]

^Looks phenomenal. I wish this was what we were getting. Any plans to add Eglinton East? Jane LRT?

Ideally at the airport, the two lines should terminate in the same place - i.e at that new rail terminal they want to build.

EDIT: Oh Eglinton East is there, nvm.

Yes if those 2 lines were added that would be amazing. BurOaks like could be called the ARL - Amalgamation Relief Line

 

[WislaHD]

^Looks phenomenal. I wish this was what we were getting. Any plans to add Eglinton East? Jane LRT?

Eglinton East is there as you've found out. I treated in-median surface LRT as a thinner line without stations marked, because it doesn't meet my criteria for rapid transit.

Jane LRT can be added. The issue with Jane always comes back to the street being too narrow, and that it passes through many hills. It would mean that parts of the line would have to be tunnelled.

 

[BurlOak]

@BurlOak and I have been working on a Pearson-Scarborough Line in the Scarborough Subway Extension thread. I think it's developed enough to repost here.

View attachment 107206

Here is the Google Maps Link: https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer?mid=1u8nMLrhYu5Z0KFBPHiFWrhzPqKI

It is envisioned to be running SkyTrain elevated, share a bridge with the Relief Line across the Don River, connect with the Unilever site (transfer with Relief Line) and with STC, and is reminiscent of the old plans from the 1980s of running elevated rapid transit east-west at Union.

This map really looks like a developed rapid transit network for Toronto if you ask me.

Thanks, it belongs here more.

A few broad questions about the DRL looking lines.

1. How to get from STC to downtown? What you have is roughly down the SRT corridor to Kingston Road, and across Kingston Road to downtown. The other option I considered before was Gatineau Hydro corridor to Don Valley to downtown. I can see advantages of both routes. Both of these routes would be mostly elevated until they hit downtown.
2. What to do with the DRL in the West. This shows it going through the GO rail corridor. Would it be better up Dufferin, where density may be a bit higher, but also more potential NIMBYs. Perhaps up Keele and or Jane, where there is still density, but perhaps a bit less single family homes. Whichever route permits elevated construction on the northbound leg would likely be the winner.
3. Which line would actually go north and which would terminate downtown west. St. Joseph's, or Exhibition would both make good terminals.

How much would these DRL type lines cost?

1. Malvern to downtown is about 25km. At $150M/km elevated, that's $3.8B. Through the downtown is about 5 km @ $250M/km with cut-and-cover, that's $1.2B. That's $5.0B from Malvern to Liberty.
2. The conventional DRL is about 12km from Finch to Milwood (Thorncliffe) @ $150M/km elevated that's $1.5B. Add $125M for a bridge across the DVP. Another 6km to the next Don River crossing @ $250M/km that's $1.5B. $75M for a bridge across the DVP again. Through the downtown is about 8 km @ $250M/km with cut-and-cover, that's $2.0B. That's $5.2B from Seneca to St. Joseph's. (I will leave the Seneca to Richmond Hill stretch for another phase).
3. The DRL West is about 18km @$150M/km elevated is $2.3B.

In total, that's $12.5B.

How to pay for it? There is about $3.5B. from the SSE. There's another $1.0B from the SELRT. That leaves us $8B short.

I believe there is some money from SmartTrack. This looks like a good ask in the next election.

 

[WislaHD]

A few broad questions about the DRL looking lines.

1. How to get from STC to downtown? What you have is roughly down the SRT corridor to Kingston Road, and across Kingston Road to downtown. The other option I considered before was Gatineau Hydro corridor to Don Valley to downtown. I can see advantages of both routes. Both of these routes would be mostly elevated until they hit downtown.
2. What to do with the DRL in the West. This shows it going through the GO rail corridor. Would it be better up Dufferin, where density may be a bit higher, but also more potential NIMBYs. Perhaps up Keele and or Jane, where there is still density, but perhaps a bit less single family homes. Whichever route permits elevated construction on the northbound leg would likely be the winner.
3. Which line would actually go north and which would terminate downtown west. St. Joseph's, or Exhibition would both make good terminals.

1. Somehow, I imagine getting the rights for the Gatineau Hydro Corridor to be even more challenging than opening up some of the rail corridors. I would be happy to be wrong on that. That being said, the advantage of the route you came up with is that it envisions rapid transit to neighbourhoods of the city that we never even conceived of building rapid transit too.

2. Taking the SkyTrain along the GO rail corridor to Pearson means that the DRL could actually go up Dufferin rather than to Sunnyside. I am a big fan of having rapid transit along Dufferin, I believe that the density and ridership is there and there is no possible intermediate option (such as LRT) available for the Dufferin corridor.

3. I have a preference for Sunnyside (St. Josephs) because it allows us to intercept the streetcar lines. Especially the over-crowded Lakeshore West line that is connecting South Etobicoke. Exhibition is within walking distance of King, what is needed is to enhance pedestrian connections around the area. (and whatever solutions come from the Waterfront Transit Reset)

 

[BurlOak]

Whatever corridor accepts and elevated line would be the likely winner.

If Toronto goes forward with a $6.8B DRL from Pape to City Hall (that's 7km, or $1B/km), I do not know if they will get much support - especially since that short length won't really do much relieving. It will just allow headway on the Yonge line to be reduced by 10 or 15 seconds due to fewer transfers, but won't take anyone off the Yonge Line.
I haven't seen a recent estimate for the DRL long, but at these prices, or the $700M/km that is the SSE, it would likely be huge. Maybe 5km from City Hall to Dundas West @ $1B/km, and 11km from Pape to Fairview @700M/km, it would work out to $6.8B + $5.0B + $7.8B = $20B. Mount Dennis area would add another $3B.

Toronto has completely lost their minds when they are planning the 5km long SSE for $3.5B ($700M/km) and the DRL short for $6.8B and a DRL long from Mount Dennis to Fairview costing well over $20B. We need to look at Vancouver and now Montreal. Elevated is the way to go. Vancouver prices with some elevated, some underground come in at about $150M/km. We can build 4 to 7 times more for the same money.

Essentially, what is preferred for $13B:
The 1 stop SSE plus the DRL short from Pape to City Hall, (about 12km) or
These two DRL's, one from Malvern to Sunnyside and the other from Seneca to Pearson or Pioneer Village (about 70km).

 

[steveintoronto]

If Toronto goes forward with a $6.8B DRL from Pape to City Hall (that's 7km, or $1B/km), I do not know if they will get much support - especially since that short length won't really do much relieving. It will just allow headway on the Yonge line to be reduced by 10 or 15 seconds due to fewer transfers, but won't take anyone off the Yonge Line.
I haven't seen a recent estimate for the DRL long, but at these prices, or the $700M/km that is the SSE, it would likely be huge. Maybe 5km from City Hall to Dundas West @ $1B/km, and 11km from Pape to Fairview @700M/km, it would work out to $6.8B + $5.0B + $7.8B = $20B. Mount Dennis area would add another $3B.

Toronto has completely lost their minds when they are planning the 5km long SSE for $3.5B ($700M/km) and the DRL short for $6.8B and a DRL long from Mount Dennis to Fairview costing well over $20B. We need to look at Vancouver and now Montreal. Elevated is the way to go. Vancouver prices with some elevated, some underground come in at about $150M/km. We can build 4 to 7 times more for the same money.

Whether I or anyone else agrees or disagrees with the details and alternatives you propose, you make an excellent point.

Costs and planning have become the domain of Münchhausen. The VIA HFR project *with rolling stock* from Montreal/Ottawa/Toronto is pegged at $5B. The Missing Link is about the same. Toronto is talking *massive sums of money* with not that much yield to show for it, with money that isn't theirs to begin with.

I think Toronto's in for a shock, and we may already be seeing the beginning of it: Province says "NO". Province takes over all planning done with provincial and federal investment, and Toronto can do whatever it likes with whatever capital it can raise. That means one thing: Making sensible business cases, and finding private investment to build it.

Perhaps not such a bad thing? And it virtually guarantees support for your skyway concepts, NIMBYs or not. "You want modern, effective transit to within walking distance of your street? Then you take this, or you get nothing." And in many cases, elevated will be by far the most cost effective and fast to build.

Btw: DRL long (U shaped Danforth to Dundas West) is tagged at $11B, guaranteed it will go well above that as planning details become known)

 

[Tuck]

Whatever corridor accepts and elevated line would be the likely winner.

If Toronto goes forward with a $6.8B DRL from Pape to City Hall (that's 7km, or $1B/km), I do not know if they will get much support - especially since that short length won't really do much relieving. It will just allow headway on the Yonge line to be reduced by 10 or 15 seconds due to fewer transfers, but won't take anyone off the Yonge Line.
I haven't seen a recent estimate for the DRL long, but at these prices, or the $700M/km that is the SSE, it would likely be huge. Maybe 5km from City Hall to Dundas West @ $1B/km, and 11km from Pape to Fairview @700M/km, it would work out to $6.8B + $5.0B + $7.8B = $20B. Mount Dennis area would add another $3B.

Toronto has completely lost their minds when they are planning the 5km long SSE for $3.5B ($700M/km) and the DRL short for $6.8B and a DRL long from Mount Dennis to Fairview costing well over $20B. We need to look at Vancouver and now Montreal. Elevated is the way to go. Vancouver prices with some elevated, some underground come in at about $150M/km. We can build 4 to 7 times more for the same money.

Essentially, what is preferred for $13B:
The 1 stop SSE plus the DRL short from Pape to City Hall, (about 12km) or
These two DRL's, one from Malvern to Sunnyside and the other from Seneca to Pearson or Pioneer Village (about 70km).

Absolutely.

Elevated rail is awesome, I wish we had more of it.

 

[steveintoronto]

Elevated rail is awesome, I wish we had more of it.

Considering that cost is a massive consideration for transit, elevated makes great sense.

1. Somehow, I imagine getting the rights for the Gatineau Hydro Corridor to be even more challenging than opening up some of the rail corridors. I would be happy to be wrong on that. That being said, the advantage of the route you came up with is that it envisions rapid transit to neighbourhoods of the city that we never even conceived of building rapid transit too.

PART I
GENERAl
Purposes
1 The purposes of this Act include the following:
[...]
(j) to protect corridor land so that it remains available for uses that benefit the public, while recognizing the primacy of transmission uses. 2004, c. 23, Sched. A, s. 1; 2014, c. 7, Sched. 7, s. 1; 2015, c. 20, Sched. 9, s. 1; 2016, c. 10, Sched. 2, s. 1.

https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/98e15

The TTC has built on various Hydro Corridors and many projects were supposed to:
http://transit.toronto.on.ca/regional/2107.shtml

See also:
http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/2003/agendas/council/cc030414/pof3rpt/cl004.pdf