Transit Fantasy Maps

[44 North]

I may have missed something in the DRL thread, but what is the ratio of viaduct to surface to tunnel in the valley? What would we see in, say, Riverdale Park?

Sorry, hadn't seen your query. Basically the only elevated sections are two of the three valley crossings: Riverdale East + West, and ET Seton Park. The crossing between Broadview and Laird would simply be a bridge (which I included in the "viaduct" measurement). I didn't want the line to use the valley floor through Riverdale because of its low elevation (flooding), and to keep the park and pathways unobstructed. From south to north:

-tunneled section under King and up River St to a valley wall portal
-a low elevated portion through Riverdale Park East, over Don/DVP etc and continued north to another portal
-tunneled section under Broadview Stn which curves west to a portal and DVP flyover onto the CP Don Branch
-surface on the Don Branch and a rebuilt bridge across the valley
-continued use of CP Don Branch to Leaside where it dips into a tunnel and uses another elevated portion over ET Seton
-this then passes back into a tunnel under Don Mills station.

It's a bit complicated to quickly write down, which is why I was hoping the oblique aerial image I used for my map would help the viewer understand the lay of the land; or what type of infrastructure would be needed where. Maybe it wasn't so obvious, but what's required is nothing extreme. The elevated portion would be on par with current B/D section through Humber valley. And basically everything else has components similar to what we have across our subway system and the Georgetown South/UPX project. I may make a new map which will clearly show the viewer what exactly is needed for each section.

Here's my latest GO REX map.

Holy shit, this is amazing. I like the idea of splitting the route in KW to reach Cambridge. And although a route to Peterborough has basically been shelved in the real world, I can see it being viable sometime in the future. I'll have to analyze this further, because this is quite the map.

 

[Rainforest]

Here's my latest GO REX map.

Overall, I like this map a lot. The may be some debates about little details of routing and branches, but this a very thoughtful and clear map.

I particularly like the clearly presented role of the downtown rail tunnel. Very frequent, Toronto-centered EMU routes run in the tunnel. Less frequent, GTA-centered routes, some of which can still use diesel engines, operate on surface using the existing Union station.

 

[Rainforest]

Line E21 and E2 are so much better than the Scarborough subway, and could probably be built for the same amount of money from the city. But unfortunately, logic has no place in election-based transit planning.

I don't entirely disagree, however I think that the reality is more complex than your statement. First of all, line E2 would certainly cost more than the Scarborough Subway. It will be a challenge to squeeze a heavy rail line in place of the existing SRT guideway which is much more narrow; and north of Centennial College, the line would definitely have to dip underground to run under Malvern. I would not be surprised if the whole Scarborough Subway, plus an LRT line between Scarborough Centre and Seaton, together still come cheaper than the said E2 heavy rail line.

Secondly, Scarborough Subway is a bird in hand, technically doable for sure. On the other hand, E2's viability depends on the construction of downtown rail tunnel, which is a big If at this point. Without the tunnel, the branch frequency will be so low that E2 is not worth building.

 

[gweed123]

Holy shit, this is amazing. I like the idea of splitting the route in KW to reach Cambridge. And although a route to Peterborough has basically been shelved in the real world, I can see it being viable sometime in the future. I'll have to analyze this further, because this is quite the map.

Thanks, haha! And yes, I think that if GO rail service is ever going to reach Cambridge, it's more likely to come from a branch off the Kitchener line than an extension of the Milton line. That branch also links Cambridge with Guelph, and provides a station (Hespeler) directly off the 401, which could open up some big Park N Ride potential.

Overall, I like this map a lot. The may be some debates about little details of routing and branches, but this a very thoughtful and clear map.

I particularly like the clearly presented role of the downtown rail tunnel. Very frequent, Toronto-centered EMU routes run in the tunnel. Less frequent, GTA-centered routes, some of which can still use diesel engines, operate on surface using the existing Union station.

Thank you. And yes, of course people are always going to have minor disagreements about things, that's totally natural, and it's been the debates about the little things that have lead me to constantly make revisions and improve my maps.

And yes, I agree that highlighting the routes based on services instead of lines makes the DRL GO REX even clearer. Making that clear distinction will also help increase support levels in Toronto, because there's a service within the larger GO REX scheme that is especially tailored to them, and that it's not just a 905 service.

As for electrified vs non, personally I see the red and green routes being electrified, with most of the blue routes not being, with the exception of maybe the Kitchener corridor, since that's the blue line that's going to have the highest service level. For rolling stock on the blue lines, I'd probably use the existing GO rolling stock, but likely with shorter trains.

I don't entirely disagree, however I think that the reality is more complex than your statement. First of all, line E2 would certainly cost more than the Scarborough Subway. It will be a challenge to squeeze a heavy rail line in place of the existing SRT guideway which is much more narrow; and north of Centennial College, the line would definitely have to dip underground to run under Malvern. I would not be surprised if the whole Scarborough Subway, plus an LRT line between Scarborough Centre and Seaton, together still come cheaper than the said E2 heavy rail line.

Secondly, Scarborough Subway is a bird in hand, technically doable for sure. On the other hand, E2's viability depends on the construction of downtown rail tunnel, which is a big If at this point. Without the tunnel, the branch frequency will be so low that E2 is not worth building.

I'd say it depends on the size of the EMU that GO chooses. If the vehicles are similar to the current GO behemoths, then yes I don't think it would be feasible. But if they're closer in design and function to a subway train or an LRV, then I think it could work. As for north of Centennial, didn't the original SRT extension plan (still using ICTS) call for all of those grade separations too?

 

[salsa]

I think that if GO rail service is ever going to reach Cambridge, it's more likely to come from a branch off the Kitchener line than an extension of the Milton line.

Why is that the case?

 

[gweed123]

Why is that the case?

The Milton line is CP's main freight line. There's already enough difficulties getting effective service to Mississauga and Milton along that corridor, and reaching that target is likely going to require two new tracks. The routing that I have shown however is using a GEXR corridor, however I'm not sure if it was included in the recent purchase or not. Either way, the likelihood of there being an arrangement made to run GO trips on that line is more likely than on CP's main freight line.

It also has the advantage of linking Cambridge to Guelph. This would in effect complete the triangle between Kitchener-Waterloo, Cambridge, and Guelph, with 2 sides of the triangle being served by GO and the 3rd by the Ion LRT.

 

[RyanM12]

Here's a Queen subway idea I've had for a while. This could be a DRL alternative, or it could be in addition to a Don Mills DRL.

A full Queen subway, that meets the BD at Main street. The far east stations & Scarborough subway will be re-routed down Queen, bypassing Yonge-Bloor. Main station will be relocated to the Danforth GO station, providing a direct transfer between GO and subway. A St. George style transfer can be built between the two subway lines. It would also be possible to alternate service, so some trains go down Bloor and the rest go down Queen.

And something similar could be done in the west. I chose High Park to route the Queen trains up to Bloor, since it would be the easiest way to get there (maybe it could be elevated through the park, I don't know). The Bloor stations west of Jane can be routed down through Queen. A St George style transfer can be built at Jane station as well.

 

[gweed123]

Here's a Queen subway idea I've had for a while. This could be a DRL alternative, or it could be in addition to a Don Mills DRL.

A full Queen subway, that meets the BD at Main street. The far east stations & Scarborough subway will be re-routed down Queen, bypassing Yonge-Bloor. Main station will be relocated to the Danforth GO station, providing a direct transfer between GO and subway. A St. George style transfer can be built between the two subway lines. It would also be possible to alternate service, so some trains go down Bloor and the rest go down Queen.

And something similar could be done in the west. I chose High Park to route the Queen trains up to Bloor, since it would be the easiest way to get there (maybe it could be elevated through the park, I don't know). The Bloor stations west of Jane can be routed down through Queen. A St George style transfer can be built at Jane station as well.

Interesting map! I had cooked up something similar a while ago, at least for the east side:

It's no secret that diverting the passengers from Kennedy, Warden, and Victoria Park would significantly reduce the load on Bloor-Yonge, considering that about 1/3rd of the ridership from east of Yonge comes from those 3 stations.

The western branch is interesting as well. Personally though, I'd route it just along the edge of Parkside in a trench or a cut and cover tunnel instead of going through the middle of High Park. That would also allow a transfer station to be built at Keele instead of Jane.

Also, and this is just my personal opinion, I think that through downtown King or Wellington is a better choice than Queen. Queen, IMO, is much more suited to a surface LRT type of operation, given the nature of the street.

Very interesting ideas though.

 

[MrsNesbitt]

Here's my latest GO REX map. The biggest change I made on this map is switching from having the colouring be line-based, to being based on the service type. This means that all main GO REX lines are green, all GO REX Toronto lines are red, and all GO+ lines are blue. I find it's a much easier way to display the various lines, especially coming into Union, which would otherwise be an absolute spaghetti of lines (10 GO lines by my count).

The content of the map is pretty similar to what I've shown on my previous maps, with only a few minor alterations. Some of the changes are:

1) Addition of GO+ branch to Cambridge via the Kitchener line.
2) Addition of Peterborough GO+ line (low priority, but worth showing none the less).
3) Addition of a GO REX line on the Barrie line, allowing for a more express-style GO+ service all the way from Barrie.

Let me know if you have any questions/comments!

Link:https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/43869799/GO REX v7.jpg

Hrrrrgggghhh this map makes me salivate with the possibilities.

Really quick question; as a Pickering resident I'm interested: where would your Altona station on the Seaton REX line be located? Like Altona Road and where?

 

[gweed123]

Hrrrrgggghhh this map makes me salivate with the possibilities.

Really quick question; as a Pickering resident I'm interested: where would your Altona station on the Seaton REX line be located? Like Altona Road and where?

It is pretty interesting to think of how this could change things, isn't it?

As for the Altona station, it would be at Altona Road and the CP line, just north of Finch. The line would jump from the SRT ROW to the CP line in Malvern. The Seaton Station would be at Taunton and Brock.

 

[MrsNesbitt]

It is pretty interesting to think of how this could change things, isn't it?

As for the Altona station, it would be at Altona Road and the CP line, just north of Finch. The line would jump from the SRT ROW to the CP line in Malvern. The Seaton Station would be at Taunton and Brock.

An Altona Station would be certainly useful to a lot of Pickering residents, considering how much of a drive the station at Liverpool and Bayly is for many of us. I like the idea of joining Pickering to Northern Scarborough a lot actually - there's a fair few residents out here that I know personally who work in the area and to whom a short GO ride might get them off the 401 or Sheppard inbound. Not to mention that the ride through the Rouge Park would be damn scenic.

I'm no fan of the Seaton development, but I think it makes sense to service it with its own GO station also. Brock Road is a nightmare of traffic at the best of times; 60,000 new residents trying to drive down it on their way to the 401 or Pickering GO is scarcely imaginable.

 

[gweed123]

An Altona Station would be certainly useful to a lot of Pickering residents, considering how much of a drive the station at Liverpool and Bayly is for many of us. I like the idea of joining Pickering to Northern Scarborough a lot actually - there's a fair few residents out here that I know personally who work in the area and to whom a short GO ride might get them off the 401 or Sheppard inbound. Not to mention that the ride through the Rouge Park would be damn scenic.

I'm no fan of the Seaton development, but I think it makes sense to service it with its own GO station also. Brock Road is a nightmare of traffic at the best of times; 60,000 new residents trying to drive down it on their way to the 401 or Pickering GO is scarcely imaginable.

Agreed. I actually did a project on alternative development proposals for Seaton in university, and one of the main things that we included was a GO station at Taunton & Brock. The existing Pickering Station, even with the new parking garage, barely has enough capacity for Pickering as it exists today, let alone when Seaton adds tens of thousands of new residents. The interchange on the 401 at Brock Road is also problematic for PM northbound traffic.

And yes, it would be very convenient for people who's destination is STC or North York. For STC, you pretty much would go right through it with that GO alignment, and for NYCC, it would be an easy transfer to the Sheppard-Finch LRT.

As a side note, Halton Region has a similar setup to Durham Region, where the GO line runs parallel to the major highway. The difference for Halton however is that the line cuts through mainly industrial land, so there's more room for parking. Durham, in particular Pickering GO, is pretty hemmed in, so parking expansion isn't as easy as it is at a station like Appleby, where they added a brand new lot there a year or two ago. DRT Pulse may help some people get to the GO stations easier, but by and large it's an E-W service, whereas Pickering basically needs a 'U' looking BRT service (Whites and Brock most likely) connecting to the GO station to have any chance of really reducing the need for parking.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Only 2 and a half floors of 5 floor garage fills up right now in Pickering BTW. Its very, very far from full.

 

[gweed123]

Only 2 and a half floors of 5 floor garage fills up right now in Pickering BTW. Its very, very far from full.

I wouldn't say that's necessarily very far from full. Speaking from experience, parking structures are generally the last places people choose to park (people prefer surface lots, for whatever reason). Yes you're right that I may have exaggerated when I said that had barely enough capacity, but it's not like if they added a few more peak train trips that the parking lot would be able to absorb those several hundred, possibly over a thousand new people with no problem at all. If GO REX ever comes to fruition, parking is going to be by far the biggest constraint that GO has.

 

[MrsNesbitt]

From daily use of the station I would caution against assuming that capacity is still plentiful since only the two first floors of the parking structure fill up completely - the rest of the levels, from what I've seen, are always at or above 50% full as well. Adding in higher ridership due to population growth (especially as Pickering Council has planned it in the vicinity of the GO Station) and the implementation of GO RER, Pickering may start to bulge at the seams within the next few years.

The biggest capacity complaints that I have are not at the station itself however - rather, on approach. To get into the station from Liverpool Road you have to make two left turns to come 180-degrees - and the left turn lane southbound at Liverpool & Bayly often has queues stretching back to the north side of the 401 and beyond. I've considered before that a dedicated clover ramp built in the unused northwest quadrant of Liverpool/Bayly, connecting southbound Liverpool directly to the station's parking lot, would be a novel solution.

Anyways, slightly off track from the fantasy maps. Point is, if the Seaton development does end up happening (as our Mayor and Council seem extremely enthusiastic about), then it must have a GO Station of its own right from the get-go. Anything less will turn Pickering into a nightmare of traffic and chaos.