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Transit Fantasy Maps

S

scarberiankhatru

Guest
The best thing about GO improvements is that they really steal the thunder away from 'subway to the 905' musings and theoretically would funnel funds for bigger projects to more inner areas, so it would permit subways along Eglinton, Don Mills, etc. There's no excuse for subways to be run out to Malvern when the Midtown GO line is sitting right there.
 
D

dashingdan

Guest
For purely selfish reasons I'd like to see the Milton line get off-peak trains, which I think is perfectly feasible. Even one train per hour I can live with. To give a better idea of what I envision here is the current train departures from Erindale:

6:45
7:10
7:30
7:45
8:00
8:20

I would add (more or less)

8:45
9:00
9:30
10:00
10:30
11:00
11:30
12:00
12:30
13:00
... hourly service until
23:00
 
P

prometheus the supremo

Guest
16) improve wheeltrans and make public transit more accessible.
 
E

EnviroTO

Guest
I just got back from two weeks in Japan and I have to say that the can't do attitude in our government and the supposed lack of funds for capital expenses is mind boggling considering what Japan is able to accomplish despite staffing at much higher levels and having much greater operational expenses. The lack of a transportation master plan for the entire province which emphasizes smaller streets, diamond streets, rail freight, and transit use is our big problem. Japan is full of evidence that even in cities of smaller size than Toronto that transit, walking, and cycling can work and not be a hassle to the commuter.

My priorities would be:
1. Cancel the York U and Vaughan subway plan. It is a complete waste of time.
2. Improve GO rail service so it runs 18 hours / day, 7 days / week on all lines. There is a GO line and a potential second GO line in Vaughan and by bringing those lines all day service can easily accomodate the transit needs of the area... a subway is not required. In some corridors such as the Weston corridor high frequency service using full size electric trains with multiple doors like a subway could make sense.
3. Focus on subways only in areas where a rail line or vacant land does not exist and dedicated LRT/BRT lanes on the street are not feasible or cannot handle the demand. Possibly under Queen St since the street is not wide enough for dedicated transit lanes plus regular vehicle lanes and bottleneck causing intersections are so close together.
4. Grade separate LRT/BRT at intersections where there are bottlenecks slowing transit service.
5. More facilities for bicycles at station entrances and more bicycle lanes.
6. More diamond lanes.
7. Merge GTA transit organizations after creating checks and balances in the organizations charter/constitution that service expansion and service levels are set by rules and facts rather than politics and development pipe dreams. Development pipe dreams should lay aside land for future transit and create plans for the future, not put shovels in the ground in advance.
8. Convert the Sheppard subway tunnel to carry multi-car LRT equipment for now with ramps to the surface at each end so the line can be extended to Downsview and the SCC quickly.
9. Replace the SRT with regular LRT equipment.
10. Get rid of streets with more than four lanes, four lanes is more than sufficient in most cases and if it isn't then two opposing one way streets located a block or half block apart should be used rather than creating really wide roads.
 
R

roch5220

Guest
My priorities would be:1. Cancel the York U and Vaughan subway plan. It is a complete waste of time.
That would be my start as well. The remaining 416 specific, would be

2. Sink all downtown streetcar lines underground, and create ROWs for them whereever it can be done.
3. Implementation of system wide 'Octopus' card, + upgrading surface fleet to accompade card (ie. allow for back door boardings on busses and streetcars) + forced integration with GO and other regional bodies (forcing them)
4. Purchase more LRT replacing streetcars and run them a lot more frequently, during rushhour, running them with 2 connected together. Older streetcars still to be used to increase overall service.
5. Build new ROW LRT routes (streetcar) along all major corridors in Toronto
6. Finish sheppard subway to STC
7. Bring back subway Loop project of Yonge/University/Spadina Line


Knowing how fast it would take to implement this, I will be dead by the time these 1-7 are finished. So I will stop.
 
S

socialwoe

Guest
I agree that before the subway enters the suburbs we have to fix the gaps left in the 416. I been to Downsview and Don Mills quite a few times and have never seen more than three passengers aboard a VIVA bus. If VIVA is an indication of where YR's most used corridors are (hence most likely where subway routes will be) then that ain't saying much.

The biggest gap of them all is Eglinton which is why I started the post like that. A line from Martin Grove to Kingston Rd with provisions to head northwest (Pearson/Woodbine Racetrack/Humber College/Albion) and northeast (Guildwood GO/Morningside Mall/ UTSC/Rouge Hill GO) would benefit the most people in the long-run as it'll be the first border to border line, first to the airport, link several campuses and instituitions, be an alternative to the Bloor line, etc.

Also everyone seems to like the DRL idea but don't you think it'd be better going up Coxwell than Pape? Pape is too close to Yonge, but Coxwell directly underneath Don Mills is midway between Yonge and Kennedy hence a better alternative, has a real trip generator between Danforth and Overlea (East York Civic/Hospital) and save $ on excess track on Overlea.

"2. Sink all downtown streetcar lines underground, and create ROWs for them whereever it can be done."

Queen Street yes but the others no. In another post I elluded to the original streetcar subway proposal whereby either above or below surafce LRT stop only at Ronchesvalles, Jameson, Dufferin, Dovercourt, Shaw, Niagara, Wollesley Loop (Bathurst), Kensington-Chinatown (Spadina-Dundas), John-CHUM, Osgoode, Yonge, Jarvis, Parliament, River, Braodview, Carlaw, Jones, Greenwood and Coxwell. A 501 bus replaces the streetcar in the Beaches and 508 Lakeshore replaces it in the west. King would no longer need a streetcar just a limited service bus like route 6 Bay.
 
A

Antiloop33rpm

Guest
What I really like about Enviro's ideas is that many of them, such as diamond lanes or ROW really are not all that expensive to implement yet would have a real impact in improving transit.

The other point which I could not agree more with is limiting subways only to places where ROW's for LRT or streetcars is not possible, where rail lines do not exist or cannot be constructed, or where capacity is so high that a subway becomes logistically and financially sensible. I have never understood why so much money is wasted building suburban subways when at ground level options could be executed, at a much cheaper cost, and if done right, in a very attractive and urban manner.

Not that I expect such logical solutions to be proposed or implemented any time soon. Unfortunately there is still a lack of vision in transit agencies and governments (at all levels) and the public desire for better transit has not reached a level that would actually push it forward as a critical issue. But at least it is nice to see people with common sense discussing sound ideas that one day eventually could form the basis for a total rethinking of transit in Canadian cities.
 
S

scarberiankhatru

Guest
"2. Sink all downtown streetcar lines underground, and create ROWs for them whereever it can be done."

That's like swatting a fly with four solid gold bazookas.

"The biggest gap of them all is Eglinton"

Everyone's opinion of Eglinton is coloured by the whole "Sheppard should have been Eglinton" shpiel. If a DRL with Don Mills & Weston wings was built, an Eglinton subway would not be needed and could not be justified today. Couple the DRL with minor GO improvements and the almost 100,000 rides taken on buses along Eglinton each day could be cut in half. Only when the Avenues plan gets going, a culture of not owning a car and taking transit everywhere takes off, and other, more necessary expansions are complete will an Eglinton line from Kingston to the airport be a serious proposal. Since this is a fantasy thread, I must say that, right now, Eglinton is really this city's ultimate fantasy line.

"Also everyone seems to like the DRL idea but don't you think it'd be better going up Coxwell than Pape?"

No, not at all.

"Pape is too close to Yonge,"

So?

"but Coxwell directly underneath Don Mills is midway between Yonge and Kennedy, hence a better alternative"

Being midway between two arbitrary points doesn't make a transit route better.

"has a real trip generator between Danforth and Overlea (East York Civic/Hospital)

You're by-passing much greater trip generators in Greektown, apartments at Cosburn, and, of course, Thorncliffe Park.

"and save $ on excess track on Overlea."

How is track along Overlea excessive? It's the same distance either way unless you're going diagonally up to Danforth & Coxwell.
 
U

unimaginative2

Guest
Coxwell isn't a terrible idea, as it'd be much better at serving the Beach. The problem is that the line would have to be tunnelled along Queen compared with an elevated route along Overlea. Pape and Danforth and Pape and Gerard are also development nodes unlike their Coxwell counterparts. Finally, Thorncliffe Park and East York Centre are much bigger trip generators than anything else in the area.
 
C

cdl42

Guest
I've been thinking that a western DRL following the Weston Sub should curve west at Eglinton and follow the Richview ROW and into the airport. It would also intersect the busy N-S bus routes.

Longer term, a potential Eglinton line could curve north at the Weston Sub and serve Weston.
 
S

scarberiankhatru

Guest
A Bloor extension could go to the airport just as easily...or even a branch that breaks off between Islington and Kipling, but don't suggest branching off a subway line or everyone in this city will have a heart attack.
 
R

roch5220

Guest
Queen Street yes but the others no. In another post I elluded to the original streetcar subway proposal whereby either above or below surafce LRT stop only

But, the reason why I prefer sunken downtown streetcars to be implemented (where ROWs can't be done) is to start adding better transit service withing the downtown core, and the surronding areas. A lot of streets are not wide enough downtown, especially king and queen, and dundas. If you compare streetcar service in europe vs streetcar service in Toronto, the former is more geered towards inner central city transport, usually with ring service, with multiple lines using the same rails downtown, and with their own proper ROWs where the streetcars/LRT actually move in traffic. Users can hop on and hop of quite easily, and short trips are worth while. Toronto on the other hand, in the future could be more geared towards this, especially when more and more people choose to live downtown. Shorter trips within downtown are what the TTC should be catering too, however the built up urban density is not built like European cities, hence, the sinking of downtown routes. When some routes operate in their own ROWs in more surburbon areas, the faster speed times getting in and out of the core will also make the streetcar grid more attractive, alleivating the need for faster options like subways.
 
U

unimaginative2

Guest
Yes, but putting all the streetcar lines in tunnels will cost billions for lines that are a couple of blocks from each other. People are willing to walk the distance from, say, King or Dundas to Queen in order to take a subway. The other problem with putting the streetcar lines in tunnels is that they will get caught in congestion as soon as they move up to the surface. This will cause the same kind of bunching we see now, terribly wasting the capacity of the tunnel. Congestion on Queen is just as bad east or west of a potential tunnel exit as it is downtown.
 
S

scarberiankhatru

Guest
I think to be most useful for the majority of downtown streetcar users, the routes really should be at street-level right downtown, so that hopping on and off is easy. Who wants to trudge down and then up several stories of stairs to take transit three blocks?

An east/west subway line south of Bloor would help much more and probably be cheaper.
 
E

EnviroTO

Guest
To my llist I wanted to add number 11 and 12. I have seen that in many places where bus transit works well the stops are properly spaced out. In those places the buses seem to be more efficient and don't bunch up the way they seem to in Toronto.

My priorities would be:
1. Cancel the York U and Vaughan subway plan. It is a complete waste of time.
2. Improve GO rail service so it runs 18 hours / day, 7 days / week on all lines. There is a GO line and a potential second GO line in Vaughan and by bringing those lines all day service can easily accomodate the transit needs of the area... a subway is not required. In some corridors such as the Weston corridor high frequency service using full size electric trains with multiple doors like a subway could make sense.
3. Focus on subways only in areas where a rail line or vacant land does not exist and dedicated LRT/BRT lanes on the street are not feasible or cannot handle the demand. Possibly under Queen St since the street is not wide enough for dedicated transit lanes plus regular vehicle lanes and bottleneck causing intersections are so close together.
4. Grade separate LRT/BRT at intersections where there are bottlenecks slowing transit service.
5. More facilities for bicycles at station entrances and more bicycle lanes.
6. More diamond lanes.
7. Merge GTA transit organizations after creating checks and balances in the organizations charter/constitution that service expansion and service levels are set by rules and facts rather than politics and development pipe dreams. Development pipe dreams should lay aside land for future transit and create plans for the future, not put shovels in the ground in advance.
8. Convert the Sheppard subway tunnel to carry multi-car LRT equipment for now with ramps to the surface at each end so the line can be extended to Downsview and the SCC quickly.
9. Replace the SRT with regular LRT equipment.
10. Get rid of streets with more than four lanes, four lanes is more than sufficient in most cases and if it isn't then two opposing one way streets located a block or half block apart should be used rather than creating really wide roads.
11. No bus/streetcar stops in the city should be closer together than 300m. Local bus routes should have stops no further than 600m apart. LRT/BRT stops and express bus stops should be located no closer than 500m from each other except in the downtown core and similarly dense areas where the minimum should be 400m. Except for long distance bus services the stops should be no further than 1km apart. New subway stops should be spaced about 1 to 2km apart. And GO stops should be spaced about 2 to 4km apart. There is no reason people can't travel a little bit further to a bus stop for the benefit of speeding up transit across the city for everyone. Having a bus stop every 200 to 300m slows things down too much.
12. Name the stops of all express routes and LRT/BRT routes and equip those stops with shelters, seating, lighting, signage, timetables (or electronic indicator) and a route map.


An example of how items 11 and 12 would be appiled... 510 Spadina.

Current stops: Union, Queens Quay, York St, Lower Simcoe, Rees, Spadina & Queens Quay, Bremner, Front, King, Richmond (NB), Queen, Sullivan, Dundas, Nassau, College, Willcocks, Harbord, Sussex, Spadina. 19 stops in 5.3km (average 290m apart)

What is the point of an ROW if the streetcar is forced to stop that frequently. It is the equivalent of taking the car and having the misfortune of hitting every red light.

Proposed named stops: Union, Ferry Docks (Bay and Queens Quay), Harbourfront Centre (Lower Simcoe), Lower Spadina, Blue Jays Way (with stairs to path along rail corridor), King West, Queen West, Chinatown (Dundas), College West, Harbord, Spadina. 11 stops in 5.3km (average 530m apart)

This removal of stops would cost almost nothing (except for the new Blue Jays Way station with stairs) but would eliminate 8 stops speeding up service on the route. Driving 5.3km at 50km/h should allow the streetcar to travel the route in about 7 minutes plus time spent at stops and intersections... eliminating 8 stops is significant.
 

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