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Transit Fantasy Maps

BurlOak said:
Those who want a transit tax will no doubt vote Liberal.

Those who want better transit will consider the Billions they have wasted and most likely vote for one of the other parties.
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wow, very well put, both sentences. It summarized exactly how I feel about it.
I am pro-transit, but considering how liberals have wasted our money like water, I simply don't trust their ability to manage money in a responsible manner.

It is just wrong to assume that "the Liberals by imposing a transit tax will give us a transit we need". No offence but I think they are better at wasting money than spending it wisely.

If they are committed to cut the public sector by 20% and the salary dramatically, that will win some trust from me. (I am saying this as a public servant here)
 
I'm sorry but you're deluding yourself if you think the Conservatives or the NDP are going to get more transit built than the Liberals.
 
I'm tired of politicians dictating what kind of transit should be built, whether it be the Liberals, PC, Toronto City Council, Metrolinx, or whoever. Fuck all of them. They don't give a fuck about transit, all they give a fuck about is themselves. These decisions should be based on proper studies like with Hurontario-Main Corridor Study, not politican gain. All politician's ideas for transit are shit to me. Enough with the political interference, I say. Metrolinx could have been an apolitical agency, but they are all the same shit. Too bad.
 
What makes me sick transit is becoming a who gets whose vote issue instead of an urban transport issue.

Honestly I think North York and Scarborough already have the subways their density warrants. If people choose to live in the low density suburbs, they should be prepared for the corresponding transit services their area really deserves. Y

Yes, the buses and subway are crowded, but you know what, it is only because the damn area is so huge and the sum of people from the bus routes gets bigger, not because the density here is good enough for an expensive subway - which makes a lot more sense when a large number of people living on a relatively small piece of land. For example, within the old City of Toronto live 800k people on a land of less than 100 sq km, while 600k people live in a land called scarborough of 190 sq km, and 660k live in North York of 180 sq km - it means it is more than twice expensive to server one person in Scarborough and North York than in Toronto.

In reality, most people choose to live in Markham, northern Scarborough, or northwest North York because they want bigger house, not because they are too poor to live anywhere closer to work (a reason often used for sympathy). Housing price in Markham and Richmond Hill is not exactly cheaper than East York or Dufferin/Eglinton. The desire to have bigger space has always been the reason, but the bigger houses are, the less you deserve good public transit because it gets more expensive to serve you.

So build the subway to where it makes financial sense, not where people want it. Who doesn't want a station within 3 minutes to their doorstep? Well, if you do, move somewhere from your big house to an apartment where the density is high enough.
 
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ksun said:
In reality, most people choose to live in Markham, northern Scarborough, or northwest North York because they want bigger house, not because they are too poor to live anywhere closer to work (a reason often used for sympathy). Housing price in Markham and Richmond Hill is not exactly cheaper than East York or Dufferin/Eglinton. The desire to have bigger space has always been the reason, but the bigger houses are, the less you deserve good public transit because it gets more expensive to serve you.

So build the subway to where it makes financial sense, not where people want it. Who doesn't want a station within 3 minutes to their doorstep? Well, if you do, move somewhere from your big house to an apartment where the density is high enough.
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"Living closer to work" is an elusive notion these days, when many people have to change jobs once in a few years, and jobs for life hardly exist. For a single person, or a young childless couple who rent, it may be feasible to follow the job and relocate every time the job situation changes.

For larger families, and for anyone who buys rather than rents the dwelling, relocating every few years is quite impractical due to the high cost involved. Buying into downtown does not make sense for them, as their jobs may go outside and then they have to do long commutes anyway. Note that the transit system is even less suitable for such reverse commutes, while traveling by car counter-peak is easier.
 
ksun said:
What makes me sick transit is becoming a who gets whose vote issue instead of an urban transport issue.

Honestly I think North York and Scarborough already have the subways their density warrants. If people choose to live in the low density suburbs, they should be prepared for the corresponding transit services their area really deserves. Y

Yes, the buses and subway are crowded, but you know what, it is only because the damn area is so huge and the sum of people from the bus routes gets bigger, not because the density here is good enough for an expensive subway - which makes a lot more sense when a large number of people living on a relatively small piece of land. For example, within the old City of Toronto live 800k people on a land of less than 100 sq km, while 600k people live in a land called scarborough of 190 sq km, and 660k live in North York of 180 sq km - it means it is more than twice expensive to server one person in Scarborough and North York than in Toronto.

In reality, most people choose to live in Markham, northern Scarborough, or northwest North York because they want bigger house, not because they are too poor to live anywhere closer to work (a reason often used for sympathy). Housing price in Markham and Richmond Hill is not exactly cheaper than East York or Dufferin/Eglinton. The desire to have bigger space has always been the reason, but the bigger houses are, the less you deserve good public transit because it gets more expensive to serve you.

So build the subway to where it makes financial sense, not where people want it. Who doesn't want a station within 3 minutes to their doorstep? Well, if you do, move somewhere from your big house to an apartment where the density is high enough.
Click to expand...

I agree that most places in the suburbs aren't suitable for subways. However, there are many parts of Toronto's suburbs where it actually is fairly high density, with high-rise apartments. Many of these areas are low-income, and not walkable at all like high-rises downtown. Not everyone in the suburbs lives in a big house.

Ex. http://goo.gl/maps/3ikZb
http://img110.imageshack.us/img110/7076/torontodensity3dw1.gif (I'm told this density map is from 2006, but I think it's still relevant to show that there are some high-density areas in the suburbs)

While these areas probably don't generate enough ridership for a subway, enhanced bus service, BRT or LRT maybe appropriate, especially since the roads in the suburbs are so wide.

By the way, a lot of people actually work in Markham (404 & 407) and Mississauga near the airport, areas which are not served well by transit. I've met many people who live downtown and drive to those areas for work, mainly because they really love living downtown.
 
ehlow said:
I agree that most places in the suburbs aren't suitable for subways. However, there are many parts of Toronto's suburbs where it actually is fairly high density, with high-rise apartments. Many of these areas are low-income, and not walkable at all like high-rises downtown. Not everyone in the suburbs lives in a big house.

Ex. http://goo.gl/maps/3ikZb
http://img110.imageshack.us/img110/7076/torontodensity3dw1.gif (I'm told this density map is from 2006, but I think it's still relevant to show that there are some high-density areas in the suburbs)

While these areas probably don't generate enough ridership for a subway, enhanced bus service, BRT or LRT maybe appropriate, especially since the roads in the suburbs are so wide.

By the way, a lot of people actually work in Markham (404 & 407) and Mississauga near the airport, areas which are not served well by transit. I've met many people who live downtown and drive to those areas for work, mainly because they really love living downtown.
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ehlow said:
Other examples of high-rise apartment neighbourhoods in the suburbs:

Dixon St, a place our mayor is familiar with:
http://goo.gl/maps/egdrJ
Finch & Warden
http://goo.gl/maps/DNZRW
"Peanut" area on Don Mills N of Sheppard
http://goo.gl/maps/IO3Zm
Bathurst & Steeles
http://goo.gl/maps/xVnyp

If you go to any area in red on the density map in the suburbs, it's usually a forest of 60's-70's apartment buildings.
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Good call. This is a more street to street issue that some people will believe. Having said that, Ksun is right to say some believe that can have the 3000sq house, 2 cars and a subway...it doesn't work like that.

PS. Eglinton West extension, should it be on Eglinton or Dixon. I think Dixon would bring more riders but Eglinton is easier to build.
 
Nah, riders at Dixon can easily commute to Eglinton by bus. If anything, I suspect an Eglinton route would attract more ridership from feeder routes than a Dixon route would.

Eglinton West should be elevated though. An at-grade ROW like in Scarborough would be slower and commuters might prefer to bus down passed Eglinton towards the faster Bloor instead.
 
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denfromoakvillemilton said:
Good call. This is a more street to street issue that some people will believe. Having said that, Ksun is right to say some believe that can have the 3000sq house, 2 cars and a subway...it doesn't work like that.

PS. Eglinton West extension, should it be on Eglinton or Dixon. I think Dixon would bring more riders but Eglinton is easier to build.
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I agree with you, however in addition to the size of the house, it's also the number of people in each house, for example many big houses in the Annex for example are broken into apartments, and the amount of space between each house (the lot size). Also, the feeder bus routes. I mean, many parts of Bloor-Danforth are filled with low-rise housing, but the ridership is quite good (>10x the Sheppard subway, 509,000 trips a day).

I prefer our transit lines generally follow the grid-pattern of our streets, that way it's easy to understand and navigate. Also there are also apartment buildings along Eglinton West, although not as many as Dixon.

I would prefer Dixon be served by some future Lawrence-Dixon line, to me that's more natural, since Lawrence becomes Dixon basically in the west. This could be BRT or LRT or ALRT or even just better bus service.
 
ehlow said:
I agree with you, however in addition to the size of the house, it's also the number of people in each house, for example many big houses in the Annex for example are broken into apartments, and the amount of space between each house (the lot size). Also, the feeder bus routes. I mean, many parts of Bloor-Danforth are filled with low-rise housing, but the ridership is quite good (>10x the Sheppard subway, 509,000 trips a day).
Click to expand...

Sheppard (along the whole length of it, from Allen to Markham Road) has a very large number of new condominiums along it, probably one of the largest concentrations outside downtown. You definitely do not see this along Bloor-Danforth except near Yonge and around the Bloor/Kipling area.

I think that the low ridership on the Sheppard subway is entirely caused by its short length. It is difficult to find a very short subway line anywhere in the world that is significantly busier than the Sheppard subway, even lines like the Waterloo & City line in London or 3bis/7bis in Paris which go through much denser areas. Bloor & Yonge is not a very large employment area compared to the much larger employment areas around Union Station, and employment there has grown so little recently that the rather low employment growth at Sheppard & Yonge is higher. Both Bloor-Danforth and Sheppard depend heavily on people transferring from the Yonge line for ridership.
 
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