Transit Fantasy Maps

[dunkalunk]

I'm aware.

 

[gweed123]

Looks good, but here are some comments I thought of when looking at it:

Comments are much appreciated! I'll go through them one-by-one.

The markham setup of zones is awkward, going from Mount Joy to Centennial is a 3 zone trip for what really is a local transit use, I would recommend changing Markham fare zones a bit to better fit the Stouffville GO line which will serve as the transit backbone of the city, hitting essentially every major trip generator there is there.

There are some unfortunate results of the zone fare system, but the distance travelled is the same as going from Richmond Hill Centre to Lawrence. That is, and should be IMO, beyond the 2 zone base fare.

I would add an extension of the Richmond Hill line to Bloomington, there were a couple of stations on that extension as well.

Good call. Added to the list.

Make Richmond Hill and Barrie AD2W for the love of god, Newmarket is left in the dark in terms of transit access otherwise.

All GO lines shown as dashed are all-day two-way service. The lines that extend off of electrified lines are running shorter trains than a standard GO set (possibly 6 cars), but it's hourly service at least. Hard to show that on a map like this, but it is.

I'm very, very happy you finally got rid of the rather silly splitting of the YUS line. still really don't like your DRL alignment, but its an improvement haha.

To each their own, haha. Which part of the alignment don't you like, out of curiosity?

Why bother showing the Jane BRT-lite? you should be showing a whole lot other routes if you are including it, considering it has no seperated lanes for its entire length.

That's a left-over from something that I didn't fix. North of Eglinton, it should be a solid line. Added to my change list, haha.

My understanding is that there will also be BRT lanes on the 427.

I wasn't sure if that was in the plan or if they were just going to run along the outside lane. Can anybody confirm one way or the other? If it will be 403-style dedicated lanes, I'll change my map to reflect that.

I would run L11 down to Port Credit if it were me

I stopped it at Dundas-Hurontario because of the transfers to the Dundas BRT and Milton GO REX. But I suppose Port Credit is also an option. I'm just skeptical that Port Credit GO will see that much ridership once the Milton GO REX is up and running.

I would suggest adding a B44 route to the mississauga transitway, running from Honeydale to Square One.

Good call. I did a similar thing with VIVA, not sure why I didn't do it there.

Whats up with the Gondola?

The escarpment between Waterdown and Aldershot presents a huge challenge for building a fixed-link transit system. Even widening roads between Waterdown and Aldershot is a pain. It's also very clear that Waterdown is going to keep growing, so something needs to be done to connect it to the rest of Hamilton and to Aldershot. The Gondola would basically be a 3 stop line that would allow Waterdown residents to either take a local bus or drive to a parking lot at the top of the escarpment, and take the Gondola down, instead of driving down to park at Aldershot. And because it's not a mode of transit that requires much grading, navigating the escarpment isn't a big deal.

AD2W GO has to go to "Hamilton Waterfront" in Hamilton, the tracks can't get through to Downtown. Peak only service is all that can service downtown Hamilton.

I thought Hamilton James was going to be the main hub, with Hamilton Waterfront only being used for service to Niagara?

GO service to Port Hope and Cobourg? Thats a little far IMO, and would be expensive as you would have to drop back onto the CN tracks from the CP tracks running through Bowmanville. Increased VIA service would do that job better IMO.

That's a good point. I just figured that if GO is reaching out as far as it is in pretty much every other direction, why not eastward as well?

 

[gweed123]

Gladly! I have a few nitpicks:

First would be to eliminate the Etobicoke North GO station and replace it with two stations that are more accessible and would ridership at Highway 27 (Rexdale) and Islington (Humberlea?). The Rexdale Station would become a major rail hub for the Western GTA with a massive amount of highway access, direct connection to the UPX spur (which I assume would be electrified at this point, and connections to Humber College (via BRT, perhaps continuing south along Brown's Line to Long Branch?).

That's a good point. I just went with the existing stations on the line by and large, but replacing the 1 station with 2 would definitely make sense, especially considering the lack of other transit in the area. The Rexdale station could also be a logical terminus for the Finch West LRT, as it would generate a lot of counter-flow traffic (as opposed to everybody travelling eastbound in the AM peak).

[EDIT] On the subject of fare

I do like what you've done with the streetcar ROW extensions in the west end. One thing that confounds me though is the termination of the Bloor-Danforth subway at Honeydale instead of continuing along the rail corridor to Sherway Gardens. Comparitively, Sherway has far better highway access. By all means, a station there makes sense and Honeydale Mall is ripe for redevelopment, but I just can't see it as a logical terminus of the line.

The reason I chose Honeydale over Sherway in the west end is because it provides better access to the subway for the Mississauga Transitway and Dundas BRTs. It also provides an easier extension route westward into Mississauga, replacing the Dundas BRT, should the demand for that ever exist.

Of course, I suppose a spur could be built using the S21 and having that terminate at Sherway. At least under this plan Sherway has LRT access though.

And yes, having the LRTs in the west end all feeding into the hub at Parkdale IMO makes a lot of sense.

While we're in the area and moving GO stations around, I see a lot of potential for a GO transfer station at Etobicoke City Centre and the ability for development to spring up around a transit hub in that area and in the south Kipling Lot. I'd also like to see the Mimico GO station moved to Park Lawn Road due to the possibility of a not insignificant Park and Ride facility (5 storey garage with direct ramps to the Gardiner). It would connect to half-hourly (or better) GO trains for those who would have otherwise exited the 427 at Burnhamthorpe or Dundas to park at Islington or Kipling.

A station at Islington is a good idea. It didn't make sense when the GO station was at Kipling, but if it's moved to Honeydale, I think the spacing is enough to add a station at Islington. Consider it added to the list! Haha. Ditto for Mimico.

You'll never get all-day GO service into Hunter Street. CP runs their freight through there and has priority. You can however run all-day GO trains to a new station built at Dundurn Plaza. You'd still have some issues with trains weaving south of the Bayview Junction, but a grade separation of the corridors was needed for a long time. In the mean time however, James Street North is a completely fine alternative given that it would accelerate the need for rapid transit in the James Street corridor.

Where is Dundurn Plaza exactly? I'm only vaguely familiar with Hamilton. So you're suggesting that everything be routed through Hamilton Waterfront (as it's shown on my map)?

On the subject of fare zones, there's a thread for that. [self plug to this thread]

I adopted your "2 zone base fare" model, and I have to say it worked quite well, haha. It resulted in a system that left a good amount of distance allowed for short travel, and well-proportioned fares as the distance increased.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Mount Joy - Centennial is 4.5km, equivilant of going from RHC to Steeles. What I would suggest is realigning the zones so that they switch at the Stouffville GO line (sort of like how you have done in Hamilton with the James street LRT and with the Yonge subway) Unionville - Mount Joy can be a 3 zone trip, I understand that, but otherwise I feel you should be able to do it in 2.


I don't like the DRL becuase of the unnecessary branching, and your wellington alignment. I'm a strong supporter of a "simple" DRL running essentially only on King, no branches.


the entire reason James south GO is being built in hamilton is to allow for all day GO. It is "possible" to get all day service into downtown, but it requires a very expensive train flyover so that GO traffic doesn't interfere with freight operations. Its simpler (and much cheaper) to run all day GO to James south, and thats one of the main reasons the station is being built.

L11 running to Port Credit has more to do with the overcrowding on that part of the line than getting people to Port Credit GO. the busiest portion of the LRT will be south of the QEW, and thats the area that needs the service increase. (partially to get to Port Credit GO admittingly, but its also the densest part of Mississauga and arguably the only portion that feels like a city rather than a suburb)

 

[dunkalunk]

Dundurn Plaza is between King and Main near the 403. A station here would intersect directly with the proposed B Line LRT. A station here would probably be at least 30 years out however given the need for a rail flyover to the north.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Great job Gweed. Your map is overwhelming (in a good way)

One question: What's the benefit of fare zones vs fare by distance? Say I want to travel from Christie (BD) to Lawrence (Jane), I'll need to pay for three fare zones, though I only traveled a few hundred meters through one of the zones. That hardly seems fair. Especially since there are people who can travel a far greater distance in only two fare zones.

 

[gweed123]

Mount Joy - Centennial is 4.5km, equivilant of going from RHC to Steeles. What I would suggest is realigning the zones so that they switch at the Stouffville GO line (sort of like how you have done in Hamilton with the James street LRT and with the Yonge subway) Unionville - Mount Joy can be a 3 zone trip, I understand that, but otherwise I feel you should be able to do it in 2.

Tough to do that without really screwing up the grid pattern though. Each zone is roughly 6x6km. And according to Google from Mount Joy GO to Centennial is 14.3km, which would make it a 3 zone fare (~12km being the max for a 2 zone fare).

I don't like the DRL becuase of the unnecessary branching, and your wellington alignment. I'm a strong supporter of a "simple" DRL running essentially only on King, no branches.

A "simple" DRL though relies on transfers to access the line, whereas this configuration feeds passengers onto it automatically.

the entire reason James south GO is being built in hamilton is to allow for all day GO. It is "possible" to get all day service into downtown, but it requires a very expensive train flyover so that GO traffic doesn't interfere with freight operations. Its simpler (and much cheaper) to run all day GO to James south, and thats one of the main reasons the station is being built.

Good point.

L11 running to Port Credit has more to do with the overcrowding on that part of the line than getting people to Port Credit GO. the busiest portion of the LRT will be south of the QEW, and thats the area that needs the service increase. (partially to get to Port Credit GO admittingly, but its also the densest part of Mississauga and arguably the only portion that feels like a city rather than a suburb)

That's true, and operationally it wouldn't cost that much more. Capitally, it's no additional cost (other than maybe an extra vehicle or two).

 

[gweed123]

Dundurn Plaza is between King and Main near the 403. A station here would intersect directly with the proposed B Line LRT. A station here would probably be at least 30 years out however given the need for a rail flyover to the north.

Gotcha. Yeah I can see that being a good long-term station site. Until then though, I'll show everything routing through Hamilton James, with a change-over between the E2 and the R21 there. Thanks!

Great job Gweed. Your map is overwhelming (in a good way)

Thanks! Haha.

One question: What's the benefit of fare zones vs fare by distance? Say I want to travel from Christie (BD) to Lawrence (Jane), I'll need to pay for three fare zones, though I only traveled a few hundred meters through one of the zones. That hardly seems fair. Especially since there are people who can travel a far greater distance in only two fare zones.

Fare zone I think is just easier to figure out for passengers. With fare by distance, it's kind of a shot in the dark as to how much it's going to be. With fare zones, at least you can tell just by looking at a map. And with this fare structure, it's really easy to figure out: # of zones you're travelling through +50¢.

And if you look at that instance, there is actually a deviation in the fare zone around the Junction and Earlscourt stations. Zone 2-2 reaches Earlscourt as well, so that trip you described would actually still only be 2 fares. I did a similar kind of deviation around Woodbine & O'Connor.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Mount Joy - Centennial is 4.5km, I don't know where you are getting 14.5km. Are you going from Stouffville or something? Thats following the tracks as well, not just as the bird flies. I take the GO train past there all the time, I would know haha.

I'm don't want to be too critical, it really is a good map haha, just picking at the minor things that bug me. In the end its not my map either, so I shouldn't expect it to look exactly like mine!


I have problems with your DRL because of innecsent costs, the branch tunnel to feed the scarborough line into it, as well as the required reconstruction of the B-D line to fit it wouldn't be worth it IMO, and having branching on the DRL will likely produce issues with merging into the "main" portion of the line with train delays. NYC manages merges better but I'm fairly certain their trains run at much lower frequencies than Torontos. I am a theoretical user of the DRL (that is if it was built I would use it regularly) and to me I have no problem with the transfer, and it really simplifies use. Lots of people will still use Bloor-Yonge still as well, if you are heading to a stop north of Queen you would probably still want to head to Bloor-Yonge, and having the Scarborough line run into the DRL makes that a 3 transfer ride, just not worth it.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Mount Joy - Centennial is 4.5km, I don't know where you are getting 14.5km. Are you going from Stouffville or something? Thats following the tracks as well, not just as the bird flies. I take the GO train past there all the time, I would know haha.

I'm don't want to be too critical, it really is a good map haha, just picking at the minor things that bug me. In the end its not my map either, so I shouldn't expect it to look exactly like mine!


I have problems with your DRL because of innecsent costs, the branch tunnel to feed the scarborough line into it, as well as the required reconstruction of the B-D line to fit it wouldn't be worth it IMO, and having branching on the DRL will likely produce issues with merging into the "main" portion of the line with train delays. NYC manages merges better but I'm fairly certain their trains run at much lower frequencies than Torontos. I am a theoretical user of the DRL (that is if it was built I would use it regularly) and to me I have no problem with the transfer, and it really simplifies use. Lots of people will still use Bloor-Yonge still as well, if you are heading to a stop north of Queen you would probably still want to head to Bloor-Yonge, and having the Scarborough line run into the DRL makes that a 3 transfer ride, just not worth it.

The different services themselves run at 6 to 12 minutes per hour.

 

[gweed123]

Mount Joy - Centennial is 4.5km, I don't know where you are getting 14.5km. Are you going from Stouffville or something? Thats following the tracks as well, not just as the bird flies. I take the GO train past there all the time, I would know haha.

Oh, I thought you meant Centennial College! My bad. Yes, I see your point now. Centennial station is just to the west of a fare boundary. Yeah, that adjustment isn't a big deal at all. Good catch!

I have problems with your DRL because of innecsent costs, the branch tunnel to feed the scarborough line into it, as well as the required reconstruction of the B-D line to fit it wouldn't be worth it IMO, and having branching on the DRL will likely produce issues with merging into the "main" portion of the line with train delays. NYC manages merges better but I'm fairly certain their trains run at much lower frequencies than Torontos. I am a theoretical user of the DRL (that is if it was built I would use it regularly) and to me I have no problem with the transfer, and it really simplifies use. Lots of people will still use Bloor-Yonge still as well, if you are heading to a stop north of Queen you would probably still want to head to Bloor-Yonge, and having the Scarborough line run into the DRL makes that a 3 transfer ride, just not worth it.

I just think it makes travelling to/from Scarborough to/from downtown much more practical if many of the milk run Bloor-Danforth stations are bypassed.

As for the tunnel under the rail corridor, a big percentage of subway construction costs is stations. The bypass tunnel has none, so the costs to TBM should be considerably lower than building a standard subway. As for the connection with Bloor-Danforth east of Victoria Park, yes it will be a bit of a pain to build, but the construction would be confined to a pretty isolated area.

I figure the branching can be managed if, during peak, both subways are running at 3 minute frequencies. That means 90 seconds through the central portion, which is doable with the right signalling technology. There's also the possibility of building Gerrard Square as a 4 track, 2 platform station so that the merge happens in the station instead of in the track (ie better to wait for a few seconds in a station than in between stations).

Heck, if you really wanted to build in future capacity, you could build the 7 central stations (St. Andrew, Commerce/King, Jarvis, Parliament, Cherry, Queen East, and Gerrard Square), as NYC-style 4 track 2 platform stations. That would allow you to run express services on the line later, if demand warranted, or at the very least increase the frequencies of each line independently to under 2 minutes.

I'm don't want to be too critical, it really is a good map haha, just picking at the minor things that bug me. In the end its not my map either, so I shouldn't expect it to look exactly like mine!

Not a problem! You've raised many valid points, and when I get some free time I'm going to make some adjustments to my map based on your suggestions. Much appreciated!

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I think the entire system should be 4 track gweed. I know it would cost a lot but the ridership is there and the DRL even to Don Mills Eglinton would be a bandaid. It would have to go to Seneca College and even then...

 

[gweed123]

I think the entire system should be 4 track gweed. I know it would cost a lot but the ridership is there and the DRL even to Don Mills Eglinton would be a bandaid. It would have to go to Seneca College and even then...

The thing with the SEDD as I've proposed it is that 3 of the 4 terminus points are very open-ended (the one exception being Exhibition). Mount Dennis, Eglinton & Don Mills, and Sheppard & McCowan have a plethora of extension opportunities. Right now, there are very few extensions that can be built that have direct-to-downtown access.

Not only would those subway extensions be at the top of the subway expansion priority list after the initial SEDD is completed, but high capacity central section of that subway would ensure that those extensions have sufficient capacity further downstream to support them (a sharp contrast to Yonge).

The reality is that the DRL/SEDD is going to have a massive sticker price shock no matter how much it actually is. Spending the extra billion or so to really future-proof it IMO would be a wise investment, and would go unnoticed by most people ($9 billion vs $8 billion, to the average person both of those just mean "a lot"). With branches extending into Scarborough and potentially into Weston/Rexdale and the Fairview area, it would become the subway of choice to access downtown for the majority of suburbanites.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

The thing with the SEDD as I've proposed it is that 3 of the 4 terminus points are very open-ended (the one exception being Exhibition). Mount Dennis, Eglinton & Don Mills, and Sheppard & McCowan have a plethora of extension opportunities. Right now, there are very few extensions that can be built that have direct-to-downtown access.

Not only would those subway extensions be at the top of the subway expansion priority list after the initial SEDD is completed, but high capacity central section of that subway would ensure that those extensions have sufficient capacity further downstream to support them (a sharp contrast to Yonge).

The reality is that the DRL/SEDD is going to have a massive sticker price shock no matter how much it actually is. Spending the extra billion or so to really future-proof it IMO would be a wise investment, and would go unnoticed by most people ($9 billion vs $8 billion, to the average person both of those just mean "a lot"). With branches extending into Scarborough and potentially into Weston/Rexdale and the Fairview area, it would become the subway of choice to access downtown for the majority of suburbanites.

Exactly. I know this is a low ridership route, but I would like Finch/Kipling all the way to Finch Don Mills or Steeles Don Mills. 4 tracks, two south, two north. The sticker shock would be outrageous, but it would be a great investment and not only encourage growth, but cut down on car usage in the city proper.

 

[Hopkins123]

Well I think this is as good a time to post this:



So basically:
Yonge-University-Spadina from Wonderland to Major Mackenzie
Bloor-Danforth-McCowan from Square One to Steeles East
Sheppard from Rexdale to Morningside Heights
Eglinton Crosstown from Westwood Mall to Zoo
Downtown Relief Line from Martin Grove North to Seneca College
Hurontario from Lakeshore to Britannia

If the subway system was built out to this extent, I think our needs would be satisfied into perpetuity.