Transit Fantasy Maps

[bielawski]

Very interesting using the line that runs between just north of Streetsville and Brampton. What's the possibility of having that line double-tracked? I'm thinking maybe do some kind of a loop service using that line as well as the Georgetown and Milton lines?

The service shown on my map (15 minute headways, continuing east along Milton, plus freight slots every half hour) would need a double-track section from Steeles to Chinguacousy, a siding or spur for the layover at Brampton, and triple-tracking of the Galt sub from Streetsville Junction to Erindale. All these seem doable from a quick look at satellite images. The pinch points look to be the 401 underpass and McLaughlin to Queen.

 

[gweed123]

I've updated my map again to show some of the suggested changes:

1) Terminus points of a couple of lines changed.
2) Midtown REX now going to Mount Pleasant and Old Cummer, in addition to Mississauga Centre and Malvern. I did this to boost frequency on the Brampton leg (as per ShonTron's suggestion). It also gives every line except for Lakeshore and Barrie an alternative to get across town without going through Union.
3) Legend has been changed.

I decided to keep the spur into MCC instead of diverting the entire line. I looked at what would have to change in order to do a complete diversion, and it looks like it would be pretty difficult to make it work. The curves would need to be pretty tight in order to hit some open spaces in order to reduce tunnelling costs. A terminus line at MCC also allows more flexibility as to how the station is oriented. A diversion would require it to be in a more restrictive location in order to make the turning radiuses work.

As was pointed out, the Mississauga BRT will help fill in some of that perceived gap in coverage coming from western Mississauga. I agree that neither situation is ideal, but in the interests of flexibility and keeping costs down, I think a spur in the better option.

 

[Dan416]

And I don't really see how a subway to MCC could be justified if there is an express GO service from Kipling to MCC, an LRT on Hurontario, and a BRT on Dundas. It seems like all of the trip patterns that a B-D extension would serve are covered pretty well. Maybe I'm missing something.

A B-D extension would be in place of BRT/LRT on Dundas of course. Why would anyone do both? Oh for the same reason people want to build an LRT along Sheppard East.

Which is interesting, seeing that he uses orange for the DRL.

That must have changed because up until recently it was always red.

Well okay, but who is served by a subway from Kipling that isn't served by a regional rail line from Kipling?

Let me think, anyone who lives between MCC and Kipling and has a destination on Bloor? Basically East Mississauga.

 

[gweed123]

A B-D extension would be in place of BRT/LRT on Dundas of course. Why would anyone do both? Oh for the same reason people want to build an LRT along Sheppard East.

Sheppard East isn't really a fair comparison though. I think that a B-D extension to MCC suffers from the same problem that a lot of Transit City suffers from, but on a bigger scale: It doesn't know if it wants to be a local line, or a long-haul line.

Stop spacing, both in Mississuaga and way further down the line in Toronto, is too small to be an effective commuter line, not to mention it would take forever to get downtown. But the stop spacing in Mississauaga would be too spread out in order to effectively serve the area.

IMO, the implementation of REX coupled with LRT/BRT on Hurontario and Dundas serves both of those trip patterns better than a single line that does neither particularly well.

 

[unimaginative2]

Let me think, anyone who lives between MCC and Kipling and has a destination on Bloor? Basically East Mississauga.

Well, any regional rail line would already have a stop at Dixie and somewhere around the existing Cooksville station. What other people in East Mississauga are you talking about?

People would also go out of their way to avoid the slow subway in favour of much faster service on a regional rail line. Same principle as subway vs LRT. This model is much like the express and local subways here in New York. Nobody would ride the local subway all the way out to the outer boroughs. The local service exists close to the city while express trains serve outlying areas.

 

[doady]

I can see Bloor Line extended to Hurontario-Dundas to directly connect with the Hurontario-Main LRT and serve the Dundas corridor. Dundas East does warrant some sort of rail service, and I think subway makes more sense than a short LRT line.

But if Bloor was extended to MCC, it would not only duplicate REX service and be more expensive, but the connection to the Hurontario-Main LRT would also be compromised, and the extension would not properly serve the Dundas corridor. Such an extension would be a huge waste.

If we ever got integration between TTC and GO REX, would the rapid transit lines also show up on this map. I thought using dotted lines could free up light green for B-D, yellow for YUS, and maybe pink for Sheppard (or switch purple with pink for your Malvern Crosstown).

I think that is the important thing about the S/U-Bahn in Berlin and other cities. It is a unified rapid transit system. If REX is a rapid transit system, and the fares were unified with the TTC subway, the systems could/should be shown as a single rapid transit system. The unified rapid transit system was what I was going for my map. The 'subway' lines are merely the local service in the rapid transit system, and the 'REX' lines are merely the express service. This is simlar to the New York City as well, as mentioned by unimaginitive2.

 

[CDL.TO]

That must have changed because up until recently it was always red.

Internet archive says no.

 

[Dan416]

Internet archive says no.

OK I guess I misspoke. This is what I was referring to:

http://www.facebook.com/groups/downtownreliefline/

I thought the DRL group was the same as the DRL Now group. My mistake.

Sheppard East isn't really a fair comparison though. I think that a B-D extension to MCC suffers from the same problem that a lot of Transit City suffers from, but on a bigger scale: It doesn't know if it wants to be a local line, or a long-haul line.

Stop spacing, both in Mississuaga and way further down the line in Toronto, is too small to be an effective commuter line, not to mention it would take forever to get downtown. But the stop spacing in Mississauaga would be too spread out in order to effectively serve the area.

IMO, the implementation of REX coupled with LRT/BRT on Hurontario and Dundas serves both of those trip patterns better than a single line that does neither particularly well.

No, it doesn't suffer that problem. It's clearly a local line, that's what subway is. People going to Union would clearly take the GO train, whether it be in its current form or regional rail/S-bahn.

Saying it would take forever to get downtown is a non sequitur. There are students today who take Misssissauga buses to Islington and then the subway to U of T. A subway to MCC or Hurontario/Dundas would NOT take longer than that! It would be faster than it takes now, so that's undeniably an improvement over the current situation. The people currently taking this route are not going to be convinced by an improved GO line.

 

[unimaginative2]

Coruscanti, I'm actually really curious. Since you live there, who are the people that would be taking a local rapid transit route rather than a parallel express rapid transit route? I can't see there being many more stations in Mississauga. The subway extension was planned to follow the rail corridor for much of the way anyway. You could add a Cawthra stop to a regional rail line if you thought it was essential. But why would anybody ride a local train if they could ride an express train? If I were going out to Queens, why would I ride the C train instead of the A train?

If regional rail and a subway extension were built, the subway wouldn't be competing with the existing slow bus service; it would be competing with a much faster regional rail service. Obviously nobody would ride the bus to Square One if there were a subway. Why would anyone ride a subway if there were regional rail?

 

[Dan416]

Coruscanti, I'm actually really curious. Since you live there, who are the people that would be taking a local rapid transit route rather than a parallel express rapid transit route? I can't see there being many more stations in Mississauga. The subway extension was planned to follow the rail corridor for much of the way anyway. You could add a Cawthra stop to a regional rail line if you thought it was essential. But why would anybody ride a local train if they could ride an express train? If I were going out to Queens, why would I ride the C train instead of the A train?

If regional rail and a subway extension were built, the subway wouldn't be competing with the existing slow bus service; it would be competing with a much faster regional rail service. Obviously nobody would ride the bus to Square One if there were a subway. Why would anyone ride a subway if there were regional rail?

As others have mentioned, a Dundas St routing for the subway would be better than following the rail routing anyway. Dundas St is predominantly low-rise retail strip malls and plazas. It is ripe for redevelopment. It's one of Mississauga Transit's busiest corridors, probably second only to Hurontario.

Demand for a rapid transit line along Dundas won't go away if GO is improved.

doady is one of the best authorities on transit in Mississauga.

Why would anyone ride the subway? Because they're taking local trips, not necessarily trips to the 416. A significant number of Dundas riders get off BEFORE the bus even gets to the Etobicoke border.

A subway along the GO lines routing would be cheaper, but it'd also be a failure.

 

[CDL.TO]

OK I guess I misspoke. This is what I was referring to:

http://www.facebook.com/groups/downtownreliefline/

Oh, you mean my map. Many thanks.

I thought the DRL group was the same as the DRL Now group. My mistake.

DRL Now isn't even really a group. It's a masters project.

 

[unimaginative2]

As others have mentioned, a Dundas St routing for the subway would be better than following the rail routing anyway. Dundas St is predominantly low-rise retail strip malls and plazas. It is ripe for redevelopment. It's one of Mississauga Transit's busiest corridors, probably second only to Hurontario.

Demand for a rapid transit line along Dundas won't go away if GO is improved.

doady is one of the best authorities on transit in Mississauga.

Why would anyone ride the subway? Because they're taking local trips, not necessarily trips to the 416. A significant number of Dundas riders get off BEFORE the bus even gets to the Etobicoke border.

A subway along the GO lines routing would be cheaper, but it'd also be a failure.

Okay, now I understand. You want a subway to serve people along Dundas. I agree that it has redevelopment potential, though there isn't much there now. The question is where the additional stations would be located. The rail line crosses Cawthra at Dundas, so there's no difference there. It's a block away from Dundas and Dixie, though a convenient connection to the intersection could easily be incorporated into the new development. Would you choose to bypass Sherway and stay on Dundas? That doesn't seem to be the route that most people prefer. The rail corridor is closer to Sherway than Dundas is. Remember that the majority of ridership along a Toronto rapid transit line comes from connecting bus routes, not from walk-in passengers. It's reasonable to assume that most people on bus routes would not see any difference between a stop at Dundas and a stop on the rail corridor, and most would prefer an express trip.

I'm willing to be persuaded, but as far as I can tell, a parallel subway would serve exactly the same people as a regional rail line, excepting a stop a closer to the intersection of Dixie and Dundas and maybe a stop near Dundas and the 427, assuming you choose to bypass Sherway. I agree that for local service along a potentially redeveloped Dundas, a subway would be better. But do the weaknesses of a subway really outweigh the slightly greater distance from Dundas to the stations? Given that a regional rail line is faster, more comfortable, has higher capacity, and would offer direct trips deeper into western Mississauga, it would likely be most people's choice over a subway. I'm not yet persuaded that two parallel rapid transit lines within a few hundred metres of one another would benefit the area. If anything, they would cannibalize each other's ridership and result in lower frequency and poorer service for both.

 

[dunkalunk]

The map I'm making for Spacing's contest is coming along nicely. Here's a view of the legend:

 

[gweed123]

No, it doesn't suffer that problem. It's clearly a local line, that's what subway is. People going to Union would clearly take the GO train, whether it be in its current form or regional rail/S-bahn.

Saying it would take forever to get downtown is a non sequitur. There are students today who take Misssissauga buses to Islington and then the subway to U of T. A subway to MCC or Hurontario/Dundas would NOT take longer than that! It would be faster than it takes now, so that's undeniably an improvement over the current situation. The people currently taking this route are not going to be convinced by an improved GO line.

Even the trip you mention would be significantly better using REX coupled with subway, compared to subway alone. Assuming a boarding at MCC, one can either take the E2 or E2L and get off at Dundas West, and subway from there, or take the E5 and get off at Dupont, and then a short 2 stop subway ride. Both of these cases would be significantly faster than subway alone.

Mississauga is in the unique position that it's main rail corridor meets the parallel subway route at a couple different points (Kipling & Dundas West). This creates a good opportunity for transfer from REX to subway, or vice versa. The only other places in the GTA where this type of thing happens is Kennedy, Downsview Park (future), and Main St (kinda).

If the Richmond Hill GO line veered west and had a stop right by Finch Station, I can almost guarantee the talk of a need for a subway up to RHC would be significantly less.

 

[M II A II R II K]

The BD should just veer north instead and go north to the Airport with Burnamthorpe and Rexdale stops a long the way.