Dan416
Senior Member
How quickly they forget.
There's absolutely zero justification for LRT on this route.
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Transit City: Sheppard East Debate
- Thread starter unimaginative2
- Start date
How quickly they forget.
There's absolutely zero justification for LRT on this route.
kEiThZ
Superstar
There's no use rehashing debates here. nfitz is right. It's time for action. Let's work to get the plan changed out there instead of debating its merits on UT.
Fresh Start
Banned
Hear, hear. The majority of us seem to be at a consensus of what should be done anyway- kill SELRT, kill SRT expansion, kill ECLRT, kill Jane LRT, put DRL on the frontburner and replace the aforementioned kills with subway extensions and BRT. Any objections?
nfitz
Superstar
I object! I thought there was a thread for these fantasies elsewhere ...
EnviroTO
Senior Member
Yes, this isn't the SaveOurBusways thread. This is the thread about the Sheppard East LRT line.
Juan_Lennon416
Senior Member
Scarborough Mirror - Nov 6, 2009
Dream of Scarborough subway truly dead
By: Mike Adler
This may be the moment when the dream of a Scarborough subway finally dies.
The Sheppard East Light-Rail Transit line, is expected to break ground in a few weeks, the first part of a city-wide light-rail network plan Scarborough councillors have accepted.
Those councillors concede whatever happens with the obsolete Scarborough Rapid Transit line from Kennedy to McCowan, it will stay mostly on the surface.
And that on Sheppard East, the foreseeable future is light rail.
But there are still some people - in Agincourt, in West Hill - confronted with a planned or proposed LRT in their neighbourhoods, who say a subway is what they actually deserve.
"Scarborough is being sold short," Patricia Sinclair, part of a group calling itself Save Our Sheppard, declared this week. "None of the politicians are standing up for us."
Despite everything stacked against a success - the environmental study already approved, funding given, contracts signed, work begun - Sinclair argued residents and business owners can stop the Sheppard East project if they object loudly enough.
More than that, they believe a Sheppard Subway extension into Scarborough Town Centre is something they can have instead.
"We have always been the priority for subways," said Sinclair, who will try to make these views known at a Scarborough Community Council meeting Tuesday.
The group circulates the words of K. Alan Fenton, who alleges the city's LRT plan is an expensive mistake, rooted in "the anti-automobile ideology of the activist left," because light-rail may at some points leave less room for cars.
The TTC says ridership on Sheppard East two decades from now, even if double what is projected, is far short of what would justify a subway or pay to keep it running, but Sinclair counters the commission is saying whatever serves its purposes.
"They feed us garbage because they're only backing up their version of what they want to do."
TTC Chairperson Adam Giambrone said different parts of the city fought each other for years to get the next subway, and failed to get anything.
"We'd all like to see subways," he said, but they cost five to six times what an LRT route does - which is unaffordable for the city - and would take twice as long to build.
Now that work on Sheppard East has started, the question is irrelevant, Giambrone suggested. "The train, so to speak, has left the station."
Scarborough-Rouge River Councillor Chin Lee, who represents residents along part of the route, agreed the city and the province aren't going to spring for a subway.
"The LRT is not as good as a subway, I agree, but it's also much cheaper," he said. "A lot more people are looking forward to it than are opposing it."
Lee also said he sees no "war on the car" being directed from downtown.
"If we want to fight for the subway it will take a good 30, 40 years. People have to be realistic," he added.
Dream of Scarborough subway truly dead
By: Mike Adler
This may be the moment when the dream of a Scarborough subway finally dies.
The Sheppard East Light-Rail Transit line, is expected to break ground in a few weeks, the first part of a city-wide light-rail network plan Scarborough councillors have accepted.
Those councillors concede whatever happens with the obsolete Scarborough Rapid Transit line from Kennedy to McCowan, it will stay mostly on the surface.
And that on Sheppard East, the foreseeable future is light rail.
But there are still some people - in Agincourt, in West Hill - confronted with a planned or proposed LRT in their neighbourhoods, who say a subway is what they actually deserve.
"Scarborough is being sold short," Patricia Sinclair, part of a group calling itself Save Our Sheppard, declared this week. "None of the politicians are standing up for us."
Despite everything stacked against a success - the environmental study already approved, funding given, contracts signed, work begun - Sinclair argued residents and business owners can stop the Sheppard East project if they object loudly enough.
More than that, they believe a Sheppard Subway extension into Scarborough Town Centre is something they can have instead.
"We have always been the priority for subways," said Sinclair, who will try to make these views known at a Scarborough Community Council meeting Tuesday.
The group circulates the words of K. Alan Fenton, who alleges the city's LRT plan is an expensive mistake, rooted in "the anti-automobile ideology of the activist left," because light-rail may at some points leave less room for cars.
The TTC says ridership on Sheppard East two decades from now, even if double what is projected, is far short of what would justify a subway or pay to keep it running, but Sinclair counters the commission is saying whatever serves its purposes.
"They feed us garbage because they're only backing up their version of what they want to do."
TTC Chairperson Adam Giambrone said different parts of the city fought each other for years to get the next subway, and failed to get anything.
"We'd all like to see subways," he said, but they cost five to six times what an LRT route does - which is unaffordable for the city - and would take twice as long to build.
Now that work on Sheppard East has started, the question is irrelevant, Giambrone suggested. "The train, so to speak, has left the station."
Scarborough-Rouge River Councillor Chin Lee, who represents residents along part of the route, agreed the city and the province aren't going to spring for a subway.
"The LRT is not as good as a subway, I agree, but it's also much cheaper," he said. "A lot more people are looking forward to it than are opposing it."
Lee also said he sees no "war on the car" being directed from downtown.
"If we want to fight for the subway it will take a good 30, 40 years. People have to be realistic," he added.
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Juan_Lennon416
Senior Member
Scarborough Mirror - Nov 6, 2009
Sheppard LRT construction raises business fears
By: Mike Adler
Sheppard LRT construction raises business fears. The Brimell Group CEO Mark Bozian, outside his car dealership on Sheppard Avenue yesterday, is unhappy about the business prospects related to the construction of the proposed Sheppard LRT. Bozian is chair of the Sheppard East Village BIA, whose members are wary of the LRT. Staff photo/IRVIN MINTZ Spare a thought for Mattress 4U, a small Agincourt business whose managers hung its "Grand Opening" banner three weeks ago, knowing the store will close within months.
In fact, the whole plaza at Sheppard Avenue and Agincourt Drive will be emptied - Chinese seafood restaurant, appliance store and massage parlour included - because the Sheppard East Light-Rail project is on its way.
"When I signed the lease, I already knew," Tony Fung said looking out the mattress shop window this week toward the nearby GO Train crossing.
"They spent a lot of money for this project, too much. And government don't have that much money."
A grade separation putting Sheppard under the GO line means a temporary road, completed next month and in use by May, will block access to Fung's plaza and another just across the tracks. It has already closed Benjamin Automotive, on the spot for 24 years, and a used-car lot across the street.
Businesses at the Sheppard-GO Plaza are already shut, except for Docs - Pharm, a clinic and pharmacy specializing in family and addiction medicine.
"All this plaza will be gone," said Dr. Bijan Pardis.
"Sheppard Avenue will go four metres down."
Nearby, St. Timothy's Anglican Church has paid for a pre-condition survey, in case of vibration damage to the church.
"I think we are in for several years of pain," said Rev. Dr. John Stevenson, adding many seem unaware the project, expected to take three years to connect Don Mills Station with Meadowvale Road, is coming.
"We've all just got to bear it together."
The Sheppard East Village Business Improvement Area, speaking for 500 businesses from Midland to Markham Road, is stressing Sheppard East, being first in a city-wide LRT network, is one authorities must "get right."
The group, "while not militant, will not be pushed around and will not be ignored," BIA chairperson Mark Bozian warned, arguing this week the price of better transit on Sheppard should not be jobs or businesses lost during construction.
BIA members are meeting TTC officials to talk about construction staging and other issues.
Though that's helped, Bozian said he wants a chance to present concerns to the transit commission itself. "We don't know if what we suggest in those rooms end up in these construction contracts."
On Thursday, Nov. 5, TTC Chairperson Adam Giambrone said he hasn't received a letter from the BIA with that request.
Ryan Bissonnette, a TTC spokesperson, said the city has also hired a community liaison to talk with the other businesses and homeowners on the route, and try to mitigate problems.
Chin Lee, a local city councillor and BIA member, said he's talked with management of Agincourt Mall and the condominium-style Oriental Centre at Brimley Road about the project, adding he plans to host a public meeting with the TTC in the New Year.
Lee said there are still issues to resolve, and business owners on Sheppard may have their life savings on the line.
"If they lose that, they lose everything," he said.
"These people will see the pain if we don't do a proper job."
Sheppard LRT construction raises business fears
By: Mike Adler
Sheppard LRT construction raises business fears. The Brimell Group CEO Mark Bozian, outside his car dealership on Sheppard Avenue yesterday, is unhappy about the business prospects related to the construction of the proposed Sheppard LRT. Bozian is chair of the Sheppard East Village BIA, whose members are wary of the LRT. Staff photo/IRVIN MINTZ Spare a thought for Mattress 4U, a small Agincourt business whose managers hung its "Grand Opening" banner three weeks ago, knowing the store will close within months.
In fact, the whole plaza at Sheppard Avenue and Agincourt Drive will be emptied - Chinese seafood restaurant, appliance store and massage parlour included - because the Sheppard East Light-Rail project is on its way.
"When I signed the lease, I already knew," Tony Fung said looking out the mattress shop window this week toward the nearby GO Train crossing.
"They spent a lot of money for this project, too much. And government don't have that much money."
A grade separation putting Sheppard under the GO line means a temporary road, completed next month and in use by May, will block access to Fung's plaza and another just across the tracks. It has already closed Benjamin Automotive, on the spot for 24 years, and a used-car lot across the street.
Businesses at the Sheppard-GO Plaza are already shut, except for Docs - Pharm, a clinic and pharmacy specializing in family and addiction medicine.
"All this plaza will be gone," said Dr. Bijan Pardis.
"Sheppard Avenue will go four metres down."
Nearby, St. Timothy's Anglican Church has paid for a pre-condition survey, in case of vibration damage to the church.
"I think we are in for several years of pain," said Rev. Dr. John Stevenson, adding many seem unaware the project, expected to take three years to connect Don Mills Station with Meadowvale Road, is coming.
"We've all just got to bear it together."
The Sheppard East Village Business Improvement Area, speaking for 500 businesses from Midland to Markham Road, is stressing Sheppard East, being first in a city-wide LRT network, is one authorities must "get right."
The group, "while not militant, will not be pushed around and will not be ignored," BIA chairperson Mark Bozian warned, arguing this week the price of better transit on Sheppard should not be jobs or businesses lost during construction.
BIA members are meeting TTC officials to talk about construction staging and other issues.
Though that's helped, Bozian said he wants a chance to present concerns to the transit commission itself. "We don't know if what we suggest in those rooms end up in these construction contracts."
On Thursday, Nov. 5, TTC Chairperson Adam Giambrone said he hasn't received a letter from the BIA with that request.
Ryan Bissonnette, a TTC spokesperson, said the city has also hired a community liaison to talk with the other businesses and homeowners on the route, and try to mitigate problems.
Chin Lee, a local city councillor and BIA member, said he's talked with management of Agincourt Mall and the condominium-style Oriental Centre at Brimley Road about the project, adding he plans to host a public meeting with the TTC in the New Year.
Lee said there are still issues to resolve, and business owners on Sheppard may have their life savings on the line.
"If they lose that, they lose everything," he said.
"These people will see the pain if we don't do a proper job."
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Ansem
Banned
nfitz
Superstar
With the 3-way contract signed between the Feds, Province, and City, Sheppard East (and Spadina subway extension) is extemely well-insulated from any future cancellation because of funding, like Eglinton West was. The Eglinton T, Finch LT, and Scarborough T extension however are completely at the whim of the province ... that's where I'd expect cuts, if any.
GraphicMatt
Looking forward to a FRESH START for Toronto
The media should just agree on a standard "local businesses concerned about looming transit construction" article. They can share it and just run it periodically.
nfitz
Superstar
Bus riders looking forward to Sheppard LRT
Kasahun Tessema takes the Sheppard east bus every weekday to get to class. He travels nearly the entire length of the 85A route - getting on in the morning at Kingston Road and staying on until it reaches Don Mills Station. It's a 45-minute trek in optimal conditions, usually closer to an hour and when there's snow or an accident it's even longer.
The bus route - at least the 15 km section between Don Mills Station and Meadowvale Avenue - will be replaced with a LRT. Prep work in the form of sewer upgrades along sections of Sheppard Avenue has already begun with full on construction expected to start sometime next year (likely during the summer). The line is expected to be completed and operational by early 2013.
Tessema would welcome any improvements to his commute.
"I would be happy to see a faster service that's timely," he said, although he'd really like an amended LRT route that goes all the way to the Rouge Hill GO Station.
Gary Carr, Sheppard LRT project manager, said in an interview in the spring that some form of bus service will remain on Sheppard Avenue east of Meadowvale Road to the GO station.
On a recent Wednesday morning under good weather conditions, I set out to experience the Better Way and take the TTC to work. I boarded the bus at the same stop as Tessema and found a seat with a good vantage point near the back. The journey began at 8:41 a.m. - a little later than typical rush hour, one might argue.
The drive to work using Highway 401 and the DVP (or Victoria Park Avenue if I can't stand the bumper to bumperness of highway travel any longer) can take anywhere from 25 to 40 minutes in good conditions (when there are no accidents or bad weather) so I expected the Better Way to take anywhere from an hour and 15 minutes to an hour and a half.
I was pleasantly surprised when the journey took just an hour. And while it may have taken nearly twice as long as my car commute on a good day, it was more relaxing and allowed for the opportunity to read - which is what Tessema does - or sleep.
The volume of commuters was also a surprise.
I was expecting a packed bus of my high school and university days where people were stuffed into the bus and spilled over the white line and practically onto the back steps, but that never materialized. Maybe that's what the ride is like earlier in the morning or maybe the TTC has addressed those conditions by adding more buses, either way the bus got full, but not stuffed.
Tessema and I were some of the first passengers to get on the bus. We were joined by about a dozen people who got on at the three stops in the Rouge River Drive and Ecopark Gate area then it was smooth sailing until Morningside.
The bus stopped at all of the major intersections along to route to let someone off or on (or both), but at many of the stops between major intersections no one wanted on or off so it's understandable the proposed stop list for the LRT omits many of these (currently 28 stops are proposed), if it didn't the new method of transportation wouldn't be much faster than what's currently available.
It wasn't until McCowan Road before a significant number of people got on (17) or off (12).
Traffic wasn't really an issue on Sheppard that morning, but on those mornings when it is the dedicated lanes for the LRT will likely make a difference in the speediness of one's commute. Reducing the number of lanes of vehicle traffic might slow down the non-TTC user's commute, which could help make the LRT a more attractive option and reduce the number of cars on the road (increasing ridership and decreasing the harm to our air).
Clarita Buendia is looking forward to the completion of the new transit line, although it might not come soon enough to improve her commute as she expects to retire in a few years.
The Scarborough resident takes the Sheppard bus every weekday as part of her two hour trek to Mississauga for work.
Her travels along Sheppard Avenue aren't so bad in the morning - she's usually on the bus by 5:45 a.m. when congestion is light so her trip to Sheppard station at Yonge Street is pretty quick. The evening commute is a different story.
She's usually boarding an eastbound bus around 5 or 5:30 p.m. (it differs depending on whether she takes the subway to Don Mills station) during the height of rush hour and it takes her an hour to an hour and a half to get to Midland Avenue, compared with the 30 minutes it takes to do the reverse in the morning.
It's a trek she's been making for the past dozen years or so and during that time she's seen the number of riders grow and her trip time increase with increased congestion on the road.
"It's a long travel for me so a LRT stop at Midland will make a difference," Buendia said.
"I hope it's (completed) soon or else I'll be retired."
While she may not be affected by faster transit along Sheppard Avenue, she definitely will get to experience the construction of the LRT line.
"I don't know how it will affect (my commute)," she said. "In the morning it won't be a problem, but in the evening it will probably add another 15 minutes."
Despite this expected temporary inconvenience, Buendia is glad the LRT is coming to Sheppard Avenue. Her and her family use the TTC a lot to get around so even if the line is completed after she retires it will still impact her travels.
"The LRT is very good news for us," she said.
While the TTC can't give a definite trip time for the route, modeling puts the projected average speed of the LRT at 22 or 23 km/h compared with the current bus speed of 17 km/h. The LRT will be able to carry 3,000 people in a single direction at peak time - it's difficult to compare that to bus capacity because the TTC needs to make transit a more attractive option to attract more riders, said Carr, so it could add more buses to increase capacity, but that wouldn't guarantee anyone would be on them.
If the TTC can shave 10 or 15 minutes off a trek across Sheppard Avenue with the completion of the LRT, I might even consider taking the Better Way to work on occasion. I could catch up on my reading.
Kasahun Tessema takes the Sheppard east bus every weekday to get to class. He travels nearly the entire length of the 85A route - getting on in the morning at Kingston Road and staying on until it reaches Don Mills Station. It's a 45-minute trek in optimal conditions, usually closer to an hour and when there's snow or an accident it's even longer.
The bus route - at least the 15 km section between Don Mills Station and Meadowvale Avenue - will be replaced with a LRT. Prep work in the form of sewer upgrades along sections of Sheppard Avenue has already begun with full on construction expected to start sometime next year (likely during the summer). The line is expected to be completed and operational by early 2013.
Tessema would welcome any improvements to his commute.
"I would be happy to see a faster service that's timely," he said, although he'd really like an amended LRT route that goes all the way to the Rouge Hill GO Station.
Gary Carr, Sheppard LRT project manager, said in an interview in the spring that some form of bus service will remain on Sheppard Avenue east of Meadowvale Road to the GO station.
On a recent Wednesday morning under good weather conditions, I set out to experience the Better Way and take the TTC to work. I boarded the bus at the same stop as Tessema and found a seat with a good vantage point near the back. The journey began at 8:41 a.m. - a little later than typical rush hour, one might argue.
The drive to work using Highway 401 and the DVP (or Victoria Park Avenue if I can't stand the bumper to bumperness of highway travel any longer) can take anywhere from 25 to 40 minutes in good conditions (when there are no accidents or bad weather) so I expected the Better Way to take anywhere from an hour and 15 minutes to an hour and a half.
I was pleasantly surprised when the journey took just an hour. And while it may have taken nearly twice as long as my car commute on a good day, it was more relaxing and allowed for the opportunity to read - which is what Tessema does - or sleep.
The volume of commuters was also a surprise.
I was expecting a packed bus of my high school and university days where people were stuffed into the bus and spilled over the white line and practically onto the back steps, but that never materialized. Maybe that's what the ride is like earlier in the morning or maybe the TTC has addressed those conditions by adding more buses, either way the bus got full, but not stuffed.
Tessema and I were some of the first passengers to get on the bus. We were joined by about a dozen people who got on at the three stops in the Rouge River Drive and Ecopark Gate area then it was smooth sailing until Morningside.
The bus stopped at all of the major intersections along to route to let someone off or on (or both), but at many of the stops between major intersections no one wanted on or off so it's understandable the proposed stop list for the LRT omits many of these (currently 28 stops are proposed), if it didn't the new method of transportation wouldn't be much faster than what's currently available.
It wasn't until McCowan Road before a significant number of people got on (17) or off (12).
Traffic wasn't really an issue on Sheppard that morning, but on those mornings when it is the dedicated lanes for the LRT will likely make a difference in the speediness of one's commute. Reducing the number of lanes of vehicle traffic might slow down the non-TTC user's commute, which could help make the LRT a more attractive option and reduce the number of cars on the road (increasing ridership and decreasing the harm to our air).
Clarita Buendia is looking forward to the completion of the new transit line, although it might not come soon enough to improve her commute as she expects to retire in a few years.
The Scarborough resident takes the Sheppard bus every weekday as part of her two hour trek to Mississauga for work.
Her travels along Sheppard Avenue aren't so bad in the morning - she's usually on the bus by 5:45 a.m. when congestion is light so her trip to Sheppard station at Yonge Street is pretty quick. The evening commute is a different story.
She's usually boarding an eastbound bus around 5 or 5:30 p.m. (it differs depending on whether she takes the subway to Don Mills station) during the height of rush hour and it takes her an hour to an hour and a half to get to Midland Avenue, compared with the 30 minutes it takes to do the reverse in the morning.
It's a trek she's been making for the past dozen years or so and during that time she's seen the number of riders grow and her trip time increase with increased congestion on the road.
"It's a long travel for me so a LRT stop at Midland will make a difference," Buendia said.
"I hope it's (completed) soon or else I'll be retired."
While she may not be affected by faster transit along Sheppard Avenue, she definitely will get to experience the construction of the LRT line.
"I don't know how it will affect (my commute)," she said. "In the morning it won't be a problem, but in the evening it will probably add another 15 minutes."
Despite this expected temporary inconvenience, Buendia is glad the LRT is coming to Sheppard Avenue. Her and her family use the TTC a lot to get around so even if the line is completed after she retires it will still impact her travels.
"The LRT is very good news for us," she said.
While the TTC can't give a definite trip time for the route, modeling puts the projected average speed of the LRT at 22 or 23 km/h compared with the current bus speed of 17 km/h. The LRT will be able to carry 3,000 people in a single direction at peak time - it's difficult to compare that to bus capacity because the TTC needs to make transit a more attractive option to attract more riders, said Carr, so it could add more buses to increase capacity, but that wouldn't guarantee anyone would be on them.
If the TTC can shave 10 or 15 minutes off a trek across Sheppard Avenue with the completion of the LRT, I might even consider taking the Better Way to work on occasion. I could catch up on my reading.
nfitz
Superstar
Ansem
Banned
present them with the alternative and see what happens
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nfitz
Superstar
kEiThZ
Superstar
Mr. Tessema might benefit. But in the process he and other riders at the fringe will get a system that compromises service for riders in the core. In effect, we are penalizing people for living closer to the core.
The other point alluded to in that article is the need for segregated lanes. That's the real benefit of LRT. But do we need to spend hundred of millions of dollars to get that?
The other point alluded to in that article is the need for segregated lanes. That's the real benefit of LRT. But do we need to spend hundred of millions of dollars to get that?