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Transit City: Sheppard East Debate

Sorry but I am not in favour of ripping up a road (which I live on) to build an LRT today just to see it get ripped up again in 5-10 years to place the LRT (or a subway) underground. In the future, most of transit's capital dollars will most likely have to go to re-building and maintaining existing facilities such as subway stations, subway tunnels, bus loops, and bus garages. We can see that many of TTC's facilities have aged and but we do not know to what extent.

By the way, the City's option of abandoning existing infrastructure for new infrastructure was a lot easier to do in the past than today thanks to a much stronger partnership between the City Hall, Queen's Park and Ottawa
 
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Sorry but I am not in favour of ripping up a road to build an LRT today just to see it get ripped up again in 5-10 years to place it (or a subway) underground. In the future, most of TTC's capital dollars will most likely have to go to re-building and maintaining existing facilities such as subway stations and bus garages
It would be more than 5-10 years ... it will be near 5 years before the LRT opens. It's unreasonable to expect that demand will more than double the 2031 prediction (which does allow for densification) by 2019. It's also unlikely that any subway will ever be cut-and-cover ... so ripping up the road would be minimal. Existing LRT might well stay in place, both for non-revenue service and also to allow for subway stations to be much wider spaced (for example ... if LRT stays, then subway can simply stop at Victoria Park, Agincourt, and Scarborough Centre ... though they'd likely need to convert the tunnel under the 404 to subway, so perhaps terminating the LRT at VP and building a Consumers Drive station as well would make sense ... but still, the disruption to street traffic would be minimal.
 
js:

Somehow I have a feeling the mayor works harder than you, with the hours that he put in. And for the record, he lives in the High Park area, and has been seen taking the TTC and walking around town even when on official business.



Not to say that's an ideal situation, but doing 3 transfers isn't a rare thing for riders at all even in the system today. Who is living in a fairy tale now?

As to Sheppard subway vs. LRT

Personally, I still don't believe taken as a whole, extending the subway is more important (by a long shot) than extending Bloor Danforth to STC (and converting Sheppard to a single mode along the entire line), which will provide a more direct and faster route downtown than Sheppard/YUS. Coupled with a properly designed DRL with some sort of N/S alignment that further siphons rush traffic, there is even less of a case for "heavy rail" along the corridor.

AoD

Of course extending Danforth to STC is more important. We should be doing it NOW! As for converting Sheppard to a "single mode", it would be nonsensical to downgrade the subway to LRT based on Metrolinx's own numbers, which show the subway extension is insignificantly more expensive than converting it. Besides, I doubt anyone living on the Sheppard subway will stand idly by while their subway sits unused for months as it gets downgraded, plus the whole idea of downgrading a successful subway line, cut down as it was from its original plans.
 
Personally, I have no issue with downgrading it. It gets rid of the transfer which is a big plus for anybody travelling down that corridor. As for an apparent reduction in capacity. I think LRT could handle it. Some would have to be short-turned and such. But frequencies would increase a fair bit.

That being said. I think most people (including the public) would consider a 'downgrade' to be a waste of money and would probably consider politicians to be idiots for not picking one mode for the whole route in the first place (that'll happen anyway after TC). I'd support a downgrade if that meant that links to STC and to Downsview would be built. For me it's vitally important that NYCC and SCC be connected by a one-seat ride.
 
@ B-D to STC higher priority than Sheppard-STC

I agree that extending the B-D and getting rid of the SRT is a no-brainer and is much higher up on the list than extending Sheppard. But that doesn't mean that Sheppard doesn't deserve it as well. I'd like to assert, we're not a poor country! by any measure. The argument "we don't have enough money" or "it won't necessarily work here," are sorry excuses for either arbitrary subway hate or TC brainwashing victims.
In terms of money, we're one of the highest GDP per capita countries in the world, which will only be getting larger in the global market. Laurier said that the 20th century would be Canada's? (I think.) The 20th century will have nothing on the 21st century for Canada. Toronto is also the 5th largest city and metro in North America, set to become the fourth in a short 20-30 years. If you wanna look at London, the GTA's almost 2/3 the size of Greater London and, as I said, is set to almost double within 30 years. With the greenbelt, that'll force much of the growth upwards. If London can afford 400 km of subway, why are we condemned to a mere 60, to grow to about 70 or 75 with current upgrades over the next 25 years? I don't think that any city in the world looking at anything like that would propose such little true rapid transit expansion.
We could easily build Sheppard extension and the B-D extension both. It doesn't have to be one or the other. In fact, it could easily be both, as well as a myriad of other projects, like starting the DRL, starting an Eglinton subway, getting the Yonge extension going, extending the B-D west to Sherway, etc. It all doesn't have to come at once, which is what Transit City's doing. An opportunity was seen to win over the public with a plan that would essentially negate the impact of poor government funding, which had a paranoia surrounding it after the Harris era that still continues today. The truth is, Harris isn't coming back. I know he seems like a monster under your bed, waiting for you to come out to grab you, but he's not. He's dead (if only really, at least in concept.) Between McGuinty's transit offensive (which will require equal backing from a future competitor,) as well as Metrolinx, which will begin providing a huge amount of funding on it's own, we're not going to see another Harris era for transit expansion.

And I'll say it again, the original study said that there was individual route density to support a subway to Victoria Park. The study also showed that the connection with Downsview, Agincourt and STC were justified by the connection of urban centres and network effectiveness. That means that while the area in between VP and Agincourt and Agincourt and STC, there might not be the density or route ridership to justify subway, but the amount of travel between those nodes requires both the speed and capacity of subway.
The new study has pathetically skewed the figures towards LRT. The TTC's expectations for subway are totally unreasonable, yet their expectations for LRT are essentially none. The line's ridership could even drop, and they'll say "we saved on money and the riders that have stayed get an extra 3 minutes taken off their travel time, so it was a success."
Then is the total propaganda over subway costs being totally expensive. Most, if not all, the stations on Sheppard were drastically overbuilt, yet it still clocked in well under $200 million/km in today's dollars. For a totally tunneled subway using smart and conservative building techniques, the price of that could still stay under $200 million/km for at least another decade.

Before Miller came along with his "revolutionary" and "visionary" Transit City plan, subways were considered to be a necessary part of transit development and urban growth. He half tricked, half shoved it down our throats, and now we have to do something before we suffer for a half-assed, poorly thought out, totally socialist "hit every ward but don't care about the numbers" Transit "plan."
 
I updated my Sheppard/Danforth Subway map slightly:

3995025520_8b9a0bbf1c_b.jpg


I call it "Sheppard Ideal".

And yeah clearly it's not to scale since Kennedy/Kennedy and Warden/Warden don't line up.

I'll take the map I've come up with over any spaghetti line plan that Miller & Metrolinx have come up with.
 
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Most, if not all, the stations on Sheppard were drastically overbuilt, yet it still clocked in well under $200 million/km in today's dollars.
No it didn't ... we've been over this several times. Construction inflation rate over the last 12 years averages about 5.9%. Steel and concrete have gone up a lot more in price than eggs and butter. Using MTO's price index, Sheppard cost a bit over $300 million/km in todays dollars.
 
I'll take the map I've come up with over any spaghetti line plan that Miller & Metrolinx have come up with.

I think everyone would prefer it if the money and ridership was there. The reality is that the difference for someone using the Sheppard LRT from Agincourt to the portal location near Consumers (a distance of less than 4km) versus a subway from Agincourt to the same location is at most 5 minutes. This time difference is about as significant as the time it takes to transfer and you don't have any problems with transfers.
 
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But I can't agree with a conscious decision being made that would effectively rule out subway extensions in the future.

Why does everyone say that at grade LRT rules out future subway? There was at grade streetcar on both Yonge and Bloor before the subway was built. There is currently at grade streetcar on Queen and there is serious discussion to put a subway in. If the at grade LRT can't handle the capacity thrown at it or if the system gets bogged down then the city will be forced to upgrade it to subway. LRT will delay politically motivated subway extensions but it will not delay subway extensions based on real need.

In some 20 to 30 years they will need to replace the entire track bed on Sheppard. If the line is over capacity at that time, I can't see them closing the line for construction, throwing everyone on buses, and building the exact same thing all over again. If it really is at capacity they wouldn't be able to deliver replacement bus service for the construction period to meet the requirements so they would be forced to extend the subway. Unlike Queen and King which are within walking distance of each other should the line need reconstruction Sheppard will have no alternate. The capacity will need to be maintained somehow and tunnelling under to create the replacement will provide the mechanism to do it.
 
Well said. Lets just accept that Sheppard east will be LRT from Don Mills and eastward and get on with building the damned thing already. Toronto could use any form of better transit. Buses are too expensive to operate on a busy route, and subways require too much capital to maintain and operate airport terminals (aka stations) that TTC builds and then allows to rot.

This is why Miller and company proposed the LRT plan. It is a plan to reduce TTC operating costs while expanding and improving local service reliability.

LRT has a capital cost to build, but maintaining the infrastructure is a LOT cheaper than maintaining the subway stations and operationally LRTs offer better cost per rider than buses or subways.

Lets just start building. I sincerely hope that these projects don't get canceled and that we see them open in 2013-2015. With the TTC's track record of construction work, I often wonder if any lines will open before 2015.
 
The east part of Sheppard East seems like such a waste of money.

It is a waste of money, as is a line on Morningside. We can't afford these kinds of projects.

I don't think people realize how amazingly unused the eastern part of the Sheppard LRT will be. The total daily ridership may not end up seeming pathetic past Agincourt but if "crowds" are getting off to use the RT, then getting off to use GO at Agincourt, the peak ridership will be abysmal and frequency will drop to keep vehicles from running empty.

Everybody's so obsessed with progressing through the mythical and impractical "evolution" of modes or trying to find some kind of perfect solution that fits fantasy budgets and fantasy maps that nobody ever bothers to consider what will actually improve transit...something an LRT line on Sheppard won't do. The line isn't even being routed through the CN/CP interchange (a future GO interchange).

What was the section of Sheppard East with a subway in terms of density prior to its inception and what is it today?

The stretch of Sheppard at and east of Don Mills was always denser than the stretch between Yonge and Don Mills. Even with massive condo construction around Bayview, Sheppard is still just as dense east of Don Mills (and thousands more residential units are on the way).

But density doesn't matter. Density figures don't even account for shoppers and students and so on (and there's a long swath of the northern 416 that is littered with malls and schools).

Extending the Danforth line to SC would certainly make more sense than the Sheppard subway extension ... though I wasn't discussing that. On the other hand, as the SRT operates significantly faster than the subway, unless the subway was built diagonally, it wouldn't save much time ... particularly if the frequency on the SRT was increased, and the platforms were moved to the mezzanine, so that there wasn't 3 stories to climb to make a transfer.

Actually, the RT is not significantly faster. Unless a few seconds per km (some of which is due to extremely short pauses at lightly used Ellesmere and Midland) counts as significant, which it doesn't.

The subway probably would go diagonally, but even if it ran closer to Midland or via ~Danforth and had 3 stops instead of 2, this would add very little time to those going to STC and would really save time for people along the way. About 20% of the RT riders use Lawrence East and forcing them to transfer after 2km is, quite simply, punishing on ridership. Also, there'd be 2km gaps, which would speed up the subway compared to the 30km/hr-ish averages for other lines.

And people actually have to travel 5 storeys to get from the subway to STC buses...there's 2 layers of superfluous mezzanines to contend with. Since only a small fraction of RT users will use an RT extension, the annoying configuration at STC will endure.
 
Actually, the RT is not significantly faster. Unless a few seconds per km (some of which is due to extremely short pauses at lightly used Ellesmere and Midland) counts as significant, which it doesn't.
The average operating speed under any scenario is 5 km/hr faster than the subway ... and the Mark II system in Vancouver averages 15 km/hr faster.

Perhaps 5 km/hr doesn't sound like much ... but everyone is having a bird over the 7 km/hr difference between the underground and aboveground sections of the Eglinton route.
 
The average operating speed under any scenario is 5 km/hr faster than the subway ... and the Mark II system in Vancouver averages 15 km/hr faster.

Perhaps 5 km/hr doesn't sound like much ... but everyone is having a bird over the 7 km/hr difference between the underground and aboveground sections of the Eglinton route.

It is pretty darned trivial when we're talking about a 2-stop extension with >2km stop spacing that's barely 5km long (which, via Brimley & Lawrence, is the most likely subway option and pretty much the only one the city/TTC has looked at).

7km/hr is less trivial when you're talking about a line as long - and as mammothly expensive - as Eglinton.
 
Incredible! "Sheppard should have been LRT but now we have this danged subway blocking our way so we're just going to build the LRT anyway and ignore the fact that the subway is already there!"

Vs.

"Nevermind that the Spadina extension north of Steeles would have ridership numbers that could easily be handled by an LRT, Subway!!!"

I see some contradiction here.
 

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