Transit City: Sheppard East Debate

[GenerationW]

Given the fact that the Fed's for over the 30 years have not supported transit, the money to do so comes from the city or the Province.

Miler and Giambrone got the Feds to pitch in over $300 million for the Sheppard LRT, the first true TC line to get funding, so it stands to reason that a Sheppard subway extension would have received that much. Or perhaps more. So who's to say long-term Federal funding for a large subway expansion isn't possible?

 

[UD2]

Miler and Giambrone got the Feds to pitch in over $300 million for the Sheppard LRT, the first true TC line to get funding, so it stands to reason that a Sheppard subway extension would have received that much. Or perhaps more. So who's to say long-term Federal funding for a large subway expansion isn't possible?

who's to say that it is?

when you've won a prize for 1 Million. and they tell you that you can spin the wheel, answer a qusetion and you might win 4 Million dollars, but if you lose you won't get anything at all.

Do you take? or do you dice?

Opinions are split on this. My takes are to take the money and make the best of it, on the other hand you may choice to spin that wheel. Doensn't really matter anymore as we've already choosen to take the money.

You can try to beg them to take the money back so you can choose to spin instead, but how often do those work out.

blah... this topic just seem to go around and around dosen't it.

 

[DavidH]

You can try to beg them to take the money back so you can choose to spin instead, but how often do those work out.

Exactly. Instead of trying in vain to get a subway extension on Sheppard, our focus needs to be on pushing TTC/Metrolinx discussions in the direction of maximizing the usability of what we're getting.

 

[Second_in_pie]

Do you honestly think that, with all the funding for Sheppard already there the province and feds would suddenly withdraw all their funding if it was going to a subway instead? The money's not suddenly going to go away if the City decides they want a subway on Sheppard instead.

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

How many new riders are expected on Sheppard East once the LRT is built?

 

[rbt]

Do you honestly think that, with all the funding for Sheppard already there the province and feds would suddenly withdraw all their funding if it was going to a subway instead? The money's not suddenly going to go away if the City decides they want a subway on Sheppard instead.

Hmm. There is recent precedence for this question.

There are lots of waterfront projects looking for money and the Front Street extension under TWRC was funded to about $220Million (promised not transferred -- same as Sheppard, trust accounts have strings and funds revert).

Where did the Front Street allocations go? Was TWRC allowed to reshuffle or did they go against debt?

Most trust accounts for infrastructure projects dictate that funds must be returned and put against debt if not used. I don't know about Sheppard specifically but there is a good chance new funding would need to come out of a new budget.

 

[DavidH]

Do you honestly think that, with all the funding for Sheppard already there the province and feds would suddenly withdraw all their funding if it was going to a subway instead? The money's not suddenly going to go away if the City decides they want a subway on Sheppard instead.

Actually, yes; a specific project was funded and if the City wants a different, more expensive project that would require additional senior government funding, there is no guarantee that they would pony up. They may just say that they are not prepared to fund to that level and that it's the existing project or nothing.

Or, given the new realities of Metrolinx being in charge, they go ahead and build it against the City's wishes.

 

[Ansem]

How many new riders are expected on Sheppard East once the LRT is built?

From the EA:

Based on the population and employment
forecasts in the Sheppard area, the City and the TTC have projected that the transit demand in the
Sheppard corridor will increase to 3,000 persons per hour in the peak direction at the busiest point
on the line. This number would increase to 5,000 if a subway were constructed; the majority of the
extra 2,000 people on a subway, relative to LRT, would re-route from other transit services to take
advantage of the subway’s greater speed.

They only calculated the Area around Sheppard and not beyond
They don't take into account people that

-would get of the trains at Agincourt
-that would drive or use reroute Viva or York Bus from Markham and beyond to take the new Sheppard stations.
-They didn't bother to calculate the line as a whole.

They did the same thing in Montreal when the new Laval metro opened... They calculated Laval and the immidiate cities that had buses going in the city...

Boy they were suprised to see

A-Commuters trains passengers on lines going downtown
that left the trains to get in the subway

B-Drivers exit the highway to the metro before traffic begins

Wanna know how off the STM was?

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/story/2008/04/15/qc-mtccomplaints0415.html

When we opened the metro, we were planning to receive 35,000 trips per day in that section of the network," the told CBC News. "In January, February of this year, we had 60,000 trips a day."


The 5000 number of the TTC is not realistic and was meant to kill the subway extension

 

[andrewpmk]

They did the same thing in Montreal when the new Laval metro opened... They calculated Laval and the immidiate cities that had buses going in the city...

Boy they were suprised to see

A-Commuters trains passengers on lines going downtown
that left the trains to get in the subway

Not a fair comparison. The reason so many people are transferring from the Blainville-St. Jérôme commuter train to the orange line at de la Concorde is because the train takes a very slow and indirect route around Mont Royal to get to Montreal (not the Mont Royal tunnel); as a result, many trains on that line only go to Parc (another metro station, on the blue line) rather than all the way downtown. It takes 45 minutes on the train from de la Concorde to Lucien l'Allier (for the few trains that go all the way downtown), vs. 28 minutes on the metro.

Obviously this is not applicable here. The Stouffville line is much faster than the Sheppard LRT+Sheppard Subway+Yonge line. Those people who do get off at Agincourt southbound will probably be going to destinations north of downtown, such as Scarborough Centre or North York Centre.

 

[Ansem]

Not a fair comparison. The reason so many people are transferring from the Blainville-St. Jérôme commuter train to the orange line at de la Concorde is because the train takes a very slow and indirect route around Mont Royal to get to Montreal (not the Mont Royal tunnel); as a result, many trains on that line only go to Parc (another metro station, on the blue line) rather than all the way downtown. It takes 45 minutes on the train from de la Concorde to Lucien l'Allier (for the few trains that go all the way downtown), vs. 28 minutes on the metro.

Obviously this is not applicable here. The Stouffville line is much faster than the Sheppard LRT+Sheppard Subway+Yonge line. Those people who do get off at Agincourt southbound will probably be going to destinations north of downtown, such as Scarborough Centre or North York Centre.

you're half right

1-Most of them usually went to Parc Subway station, took the 935 downtown express on park avenue reserved lane to Rene-levesque with no stops downtown

Now that their train stops on the orange line, they all take it now.

 

[Rainforest]

The Stouffville line is much faster than the Sheppard LRT+Sheppard Subway+Yonge line. Those people who do get off at Agincourt southbound will probably be going to destinations north of downtown, such as Scarborough Centre or North York Centre.

The Stouffville line is much faster, but it needs much more frequent service to become a real alternative.

And even then that happens, Sheppard subway will serve crosstown trips across the north of 416. There is no alternative E-W rail line in that area.

 

[Rainforest]

Most trust accounts for infrastructure projects dictate that funds must be returned and put against debt if not used. I don't know about Sheppard specifically but there is a good chance new funding would need to come out of a new budget.

But if the section of LRT east of Agincourt is still on the table, can the federal contribution be used for that section? It would be logical...

 

[rbt]

But if the section of LRT east of Agincourt is still on the table, can the federal contribution be used for that section? It would be logical...

The terms for receiving federal funding spell out in great detail what they will and will not cover and what all the other parties have for obligations. I don't know how much leeway we would have since the Building Canada Fund request was approved. I would expect the province would be required to submit an official request for the change (on our behalf, since BCF is with the provinces) and any negotiations of who covers what would likely need to start from scratch.

Don't know for sure of course. You would need a copy of the current agreement to find out. Often it seems the municipality receiving the funds isn't told all of the rules to acquiring the funds, so we have no way of knowing.


Of course, this is all in the name of a transparent and accountable federal government which probably costs billions in paperwork and construction delays per year.

 

[Voltz]

This came as a surprise, The Sheppard Finch BCA

http://www.metrolinx.com/Docs/general/Sheppard-Finch_BCA_Report.pdf

There are five options presented, one is including converting the subway, and another is extending it, but only to downsview

 

[Dan416]

This came as a surprise, The Sheppard Finch BCA

http://www.metrolinx.com/Docs/general/Sheppard-Finch_BCA_Report.pdf

There are five options presented, one is including converting the subway, and another is extending it, but only to downsview

Nice way to stack the deck by not including the option of extending the Sheppard Subway in both directions. A fairer comparison would have involved studying expanding Sheppard to Downsview and to STC at the same time, for a nice long continuous line that would have helped riders in the east and west. It's a very political omission, obviously.

The cost to shutdown the Sheppard subway for option 2 (converting Sheppard subway to LRT) is $670 million. I'm not sure what that includes, but that's an obscene amount to reduce capacity in my opinion. Comparing that to extending the subway to Downsview, you might as well extend the subway to Downsview versus converting Sheppard since it's $3.65 billion versus $3.59 billion.

Not surprisingly, the subway to Downsview has the highest development potential (2.3-6.0 billion), the best land use shaping (but not "priority neighborhoods" whatever that means (cough, Malvern, cough)

This quotation is interesting: "Option 4, which has the lowest effect, will reduce GHG emissions by some 25,000 tonnes in 2021. The reason for the lower GHG emission reduction under Option 4 is due to less constrained road space. In Option 3, road capacity will be reduced for a longer distance and will have a more significant effect on drivers."
As in, they view the bad effects on drivers as a good thing.

At the very least, option 3 doesn't preclude extending Sheppard to Downsview, unlike options 2 and 5. I still don't like the Sheppard East LRT, but some of the other options they examined were even less palatable.